[DBP] Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics feedback

IL-2 Strafing run

This ability needs to be good enough for people to consider using it over a bombing strike that you can use to finish off OKW trucks, etc, etc.

The key change to the this ability comes from the fact that OKW no longer has effortless access to AA.

Currently the ability only targets infantry. We could change it to allow it to also target light vehicles.

If current changes won't be enough, there is always an option give one plane rockets.


It is RS-132 (РС-132)
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These rockets are very close to BM-13 rockets.

Guard Rifle Combined Arms Report Card:

(I intended to test and post this yesterday, but my roommate used up my internet upload quota so I lost internet for 24hrs. FeelsBadMan)

This doctrine is a mainly defensive anti-infantry commander.

Hit the Dirt
Great to see that it works in cover now; it can allow Conscripts to win cover-to-cover engagements. However, it doesn't synergize terribly well with PPsHs because most of the time you would want to quickly close the distance to maximize PPsH DPS, which usually is within 10m.
I would suggest reducing the CP requirement to 0. This would make Conscripts much stronger in early-game engagements against other infantry, especially the MG42-reliant WM. It shouldn't be too overpowered as conscript DPS is relatively low, but it would definitely tip the Cons vs Grens engagement in SOV favor.

Guards Rifle Infantry
Guards feel a lot more reliable against enemy infantry due to the return of 27 damage for their PTRS rifles. Hit the Dirt is an engagement-changing ability: a Vet 1 Guards squad with 2 DP-28s can win an engagement against vet 0 Obers. Additionally due to the fact that they have PTRS AT rifles they consistently destroy enemy green cover. I would say that they are very well balanced.

PPsH Package
I would say that the PPsH package works as advertised. Interestingly they can beat vet 0 Assault Grenadiers at close range with over 1/3 health to spare.
I would suggest reducing the CP requirement to 2, allowing Conscripts to gain access to much more firepower at the same time Grenadiers can get G43s.

ML-20 152mm Howitzer
Remains very effective against static units/buildings/garrisons. Reliably does about 1000 damage to OKW HQs (slightly more than half their HP). The move to adjust static artillery cost from purely MP to MP and FU was a good decision. However I would say that reducing the fuel costs by 10 to 15 would make the much more attractive.

IL-2 Anti-Infantry Loiter
Much stronger ever since v1.5.1. It is an extremely effective anti-blob tool; quickly suppresses and pins the whole blob, and if the blob doesn't retreat, the blob will get wiped out. The two planes do consistent damage, kill models, suppress/pin infantry, and occasionally wipes infantry.

There are two main issues I have with this ability, neither of which I have an idea of how to fix but they both seem a little odd to me:
- Infantry recover from a state of suppression and even from being pinned in red cover between strafes.
- As mentioned before, the cannon fire often gets eaten up by world objects such as trees, but if the infantry are standing behind garrisons, the garrison does not eat up the fire and they get pulverized.
- The cannons do nearly no damage to garrisons if they target infantry inside the garrison (the infantry still take considerable amounts of damage). Not sure if this is a bug or not.

I do think replacing ppsh for a dp28 upgrade

That sounds great for me, better synergy with hit the dirt

If current changes won't be enough, there is always an option give one plane rockets.


It is RS-132 (РС-132)

These rockets are very close to BM-13 rockets.

Yes! Give Soviets some rockets!

What if the commander gave penals also access to ppsh and hit the dirt?

We could try reverting the ppsh nerfs, and se how they feel with more expensive oorah and lower cons RA.

Hit the dirt is tough, and ideas are welcome.

I think Penals having access to abilities and upgrades may help them get used in this commander when otherwise they may never be seen. They could also never work, penals don't have the best RA in this patch, so closing could be hard.

With Regard to the Upgrade(ppsh or suggested DP), i think one issue would be if its so good that people would just spam cons and upgrade them. To balance a stronger upgrade, removing Oorrah/AT grenade could be removed to justify making the weapon itself stronger.

Also as a replacement or supplement for Hit the dirt, something could be added that costs munitions and improves moving accuracy to encourage mobile conscript play. Alternatively give it as an ability to ppsh cons once they upgrade to help that upgrade. Seperatley it could be added to the hit the dirt CP slot? Kinda like a g43 style improvement where it won't do much stationary but moving won't really reduce squad accuracy.

Thematically another way you could do it is a reverse hit the dirt ability, like Increase RA and let them do more damage.

I kinda thought of most of this while i was writing not fully flushed out but hopefully something i suggested sounds good

Hit the dirt could function in a couple of other ways potentially.

If the ability caused the unit to become suppressed immediately, but then be immune to being pinned, the ability could be used to maneuver infantry out of suppressive fire, or potentially towards grenade range, molotov or at nade.

Imagine all those times you just needed that last entity to crawl around a sight blocker.

Alternatively, hit the dirt could also be a short, timed ability that simply mitigates the offensive penalties of being suppressed for a period of time. It could even prevent the loss of range for throwing grenades.

Hell if could be a flat buff that can only be active while suppressed.

Suppression is a core component of the Coh franchise, so having abilities that play with it may be nicely appropriate.

Also as a replacement or supplement for Hit the dirt, something could be added that costs munitions and improves moving accuracy to encourage mobile conscript play. Alternatively give it as an ability to ppsh cons once they upgrade to help that upgrade. Seperatley it could be added to the hit the dirt CP slot? Kinda like a g43 style improvement where it won't do much stationary but moving won't really reduce squad accuracy.

Thematically another way you could do it is a reverse hit the dirt ability, like Increase RA and let them do more damage.

Sounds a bit like For Mother Russia, which would arguably fit the doctrine quite well

Introducing the KV-1 was an interesting but good choice. After its buff, it can absorb damage fairly well, synergizes with the SU-85 too.

However, I do find the abilities quite confusing. KV-1 and Hit the Dirt combined, while there is also a KV-1 only ability in another commander easily creates misunderstandings. Same goes for the ATG ambush and the ATG + Tank ambush.

I would suggest combining Conscript Hit the Dirt! with the PPsH-41 upgrade (similar to the way Sprint and Ambush Camouflage has been merged), then replacing Hit the Dirt with the KV-1.

The combinations of hit the dirt and ppsh it's contradictory. Ppsh is for cqc and hit the dirt is for far range defensive profile. Hit the dirts fits perfect in guard because of dp28. I'm still suggesting replace ppsh for 1 single dp28.

We could merge ppsh/hit the dirt to an upgrade of dp28 to cons that substitutes hoorar for hit the dirt.

The combinations of hit the dirt and ppsh it's contradictory. Ppsh is for cqc and hit the dirt is for far range defensive profile. Hit the dirts fits perfect in guard because of dp28. I'm still suggesting replace ppsh for 1 single dp28.

We could merge ppsh/hit the dirt to an upgrade of dp28 to cons that substitutes hoorar for hit the dirt.

Bad idea. We would see DP-28 Cons blobs which are immune to suppression mowing down everything they come across, cancelling Hit the Dirt and moving after every 10 seconds. Plus, being 6-man squads they are much more resistant to indirect fire than Grens.

As I see it, Hit the Dirt is supposed to be used when you have multiple Cons squads attacking a lone MG. You move one in, Hit the Dirt, move the other. Once he shifts fire to the other moving squad you Hit the Dirt on that one and move the other.

Bad idea. We would see DP-28 Cons blobs which are immune to suppression mowing down everything they come across, cancelling Hit the Dirt and moving after every 10 seconds. Plus, being 6-man squads they are much more resistant to indirect fire than Grens.

As I see it, Hit the Dirt is supposed to be used when you have multiple Cons squads attacking a lone MG. You move one in, Hit the Dirt, move the other. Once he shifts fire to the other moving squad you Hit the Dirt on that one and move the other.

This would happen anyway with ppshs. Cons spam is not an issue of weapon upgrades its about upkeep/mp drain. Only difference is that ppsh should be for assault and dp28 for defense, so hit the dirt fits on static defensive weapon profiles.

This would happen anyway with ppshs. Cons spam is not an issue of weapon upgrades its about upkeep/mp drain. Only difference is that ppsh should be for assault and dp28 for defense, so hit the dirt fits on static defensive weapon profiles.

Blobing PPsH conscripts far less viable than blobbing DP-28 conscripts. The reason is that PPsH Conscripts have very low DPS at long range. If they manage to activate Hit the Dirt so before they get suppressed by the MG, their DPS is so low that the MG can walk away. If they were all armed with DP-28s, the MG would have been shot to bits.

Imagine LMG42 Grenadier blobs (already problematic), except that they're much harder to wipe with indirect fire, they have sprint, and they're immune to suppression and take less damage.

I understand your point, that you would rather have something that is thematic and synergizes extremely well with the ability. However, I would argue that such a combination would make Conscripts overpowered.

If you're so inclined, feel free to make a mod. Give conscripts a DP-28 upgrade, pick a commander with Hit the Dirt, then test it to see how they perform. I'm pretty sure that you will make a unit that is incredibly frustrating to play against, and fairly easy to a-move in a blob.

I understand your point, that you would rather have something that is thematic and synergizes extremely well with the ability. However, I would argue that such a combination would make Conscripts overpowered.

DPS conscript in long range is ver low. Plus I said in my suggestion orah was replaced by hit the dirt. 1-dp28 DOES NOT give that much power to conscripts, you can try it yourself.

Not being able to be supressed is a matter of how you work hit the dirt. If hit the dirt make cons immune to supression then they should have less accuracy. If hit the dirt gives more accuracy then they can get supressed either. You have mixed all the stuff here. Cons spam again is not a problem of weapon upgrades it's a problem of giving specific roles to infantry through upgrades. That's why dp28+hit the dirt fits more than ppshs. Ppsh's its a downgrade to conscripts except in close range, which overall still is a downgrade. Mixing hit the dirt with ppshs its not only about thematic issue its about it solves nothing. Ppsh's will still be a never chosen upgrade.

*necro*

So what is the consensus regarding the commander? Was adding the KV-1 be sufficient to put the commander on-par with Guards Motor?

Does the KV-1 need additional help, given that it is now only buildable from T4? Is it still too fragile for cost (we don't want to change its lethality, because diversity).

PS: To get the best results out of the commander, avoid upgrading every single Conscript squad with ppsh (1-2 squads max), and try using hit-the-dirt behind heavy cover (for both unupgraded Conscripts and Guards) at every single opportunity.

The sheer volume of changes that are being presented hasn't allowed for me to even begin to test a lot of it.

I am only able to sit down and test things on the weekends, and I can't even keep track of what's changed, let alone test it all.

It may be useful to provide a list of changes you haven't received much feedback on so some of us can try to prioritize...?

I'm looking at those chanelogs from DBP and can't find anything about KV-1. Where it is?

I'm looking at those chanelogs from DBP and can't find anything about KV-1. Where it is?

Probably under commander changes in official forums. KV received the following changes:
- Now locked in T4
- Health from 800 to 960

Oh so that's all. I thought that there might be something else like.

I haven't tested this commander but extra 160hp is not a big deal for a KV1 I guess. I don't see any reason to go for a KV1 over T34/85. It's gun itnt that great, armor is medicore, it's slow.

But since it needs to be something like damage sponge, did you consider giving it on default, instead of secure mode, something like hull down? That would add great flavor to this unit and how it's used imo.

Oh so that's all. I thought that there might be something else like.

I haven't tested this commander but extra 160hp is not a big deal for a KV1 I guess. I don't see any reason to go for a KV1 over T34/85. It's gun itnt that great, armor is medicore, it's slow.

But since it needs to be something like damage sponge, did you consider giving it on default, instead of secure mode, something like hull down? That would add great flavor to this unit and how it's used imo.

We really wanted to change Vet1 to hull down, but it got scoped out. Thus, we're asking if 160HP is going to be enough for its price.

Part of the reason why you might want to use a KV1 is because it comes on commanders with howitzers and skillplanes.

That's a shame it was scoped out but I feel like KV1 for it's price and being doctrinal is a bit underperforming when compare to Churchill:

KV costs 420/145 while Churchill 490/160.
Sure, it's a bit more expensive but not that much, yet for those extra 70 MP and 15 F it gets huge, fat 1400 HP (440 more), 30 less armor which is hardly any difference between KV1. It also has lower scatter, better accuracy on move and better penetration.

I guess KV1 should be balanced accordinly to Churchill since they fill the same role of a damage sponge.

If not hull down, maybe vet 2 HP and armor buff for KV1? So at vet 2 it would get 1040 HP and 290-300 armor? Or just HP buff to 1200?