Is OKW the Final Boss In This Game?

Remember when Volksgrenadiers were supposed to be slightly better static conscripts? Then they got slightly buffed each time until now they are ridiculously good for their cost. They can build sandbags, now they have flame grenade to force any unit out of cover or buildings/ Panzerfaust. STG44 and all for 250 mp haha. They are rivaling rifleman for a lot cheaper costs.

Everyone bitches about Penals being spammed, but have you tried using Conscripts or maxims against OKW? It's about as effective as just building combat engineers.

Then they got slightly buffed each time

Except for when the occasions where they got nerfed.

Glad to see that there are finally some reasonable judgement on OKW opness. Let's review how people protected their favorite brainless op OKW before when OKW's kubel still having ultimate suppression power that drived USF to hell. I think everyone in this thread are simply having L2P issue according to the standard of professional Coh2 players before. lollllll, because people finally degenerate to a degree that cannot face a kubel without suppression with SUPEROP USF and call for a further nerf.


"Rear echelons inside buildings, rear echelons inside fighting pits, two squads of REs + 1 Rifleman, smoke grenades - there, you now have 4 T0 counters to Kubelwagens.

The reason I keep telling you to use REs is first, they're cheap as chips. Second, the Kubels large target size makes it an easy target even for them"

By Lazarus

"2 rifle is enough..."

By RiCE

"ya its pointless, no time to waste its a l2p issue nothing else. Kugel is fine now dont need any change. if need a change, what you would do Kingdun? I need to know."

By STRIKETHEBL00D


want to read more ironic comments by axis fan boys?
Read hereource:https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/171758/kubelwagen-early-counter-option-for-usf#latest

Glad to see that there are finally some reasonable judgement on OKW opness. Let's review how people protected their favorite brainless op OKW before when OKW's kubel still having ultimate suppression power that drived USF to hell. I think everyone in this thread are simply having L2P issue according to the standard of professional Coh2 players before. lollllll, because people finally degenerate to a degree that cannot face a kubel without suppression with SUPEROP USF and call for a further nerf.


"Rear echelons inside buildings, rear echelons inside fighting pits, two squads of REs + 1 Rifleman, smoke grenades - there, you now have 4 T0 counters to Kubelwagens.

The reason I keep telling you to use REs is first, they're cheap as chips. Second, the Kubels large target size makes it an easy target even for them"

By Lazarus

"2 rifle is enough..."

By RiCE

"ya its pointless, no time to waste its a l2p issue nothing else. Kugel is fine now dont need any change. if need a change, what you would do Kingdun? I need to know."

By STRIKETHEBL00D


want to read more ironic comments by axis fan boys?
Read hereource:https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/171758/kubelwagen-early-counter-option-for-usf#latest

You are right, kubel itself wasn't the problem but when you multiply it's survivability and capping power with sturmpioneers which can rush any squad down that kubel drives over and volks than can go toe to toe with rifles and with 5 minute luchs you'll get a force that USF no matter what it does it cannot defeat it (even more on some maps with a) retarded cut offs b) not enough garrisons)

Teching grenades and smoke to counter kubel will just set you back. You can even call it a gg when luchs shows then

You are right, kubel itself wasn't the problem but when you multiply it's survivability and capping power with sturmpioneers which can rush any squad down that kubel drives over and volks than can go toe to toe with rifles and with 5 minute luchs you'll get a force that USF no matter what it does it cannot defeat it (even more on some maps with a) retarded cut offs b) not enough garrisons)

Teching grenades and smoke to counter kubel will just set you back. You can even call it a gg when luchs shows then

Time proves everything.

You are right, kubel itself wasn't the problem but when you multiply it's survivability and capping power with sturmpioneers which can rush any squad down that kubel drives over and volks than can go toe to toe with rifles and with 5 minute luchs you'll get a force that USF no matter what it does it cannot defeat it (even more on some maps with a) retarded cut offs b) not enough garrisons)

Teching grenades and smoke to counter kubel will just set you back. You can even call it a gg when luchs shows then

sooo okw are not supposeed to be able to go toe to toe with riflemen so they should just get roflstomped now matter what? lel. FYI, riflemen beat volks in 1v1 so idk what nonsense ur pulling but the only time i seen 1v1 volks beat riflmen is when ther 4-5 with stg going against NON-upgraded rifles. ur problem if u get stingy with ur munitions, dont blame OKW

sooo okw are not supposeed to be able to go toe to toe with riflemen so they should just get roflstomped now matter what? lel. FYI, riflemen beat volks in 1v1 so idk what nonsense ur pulling but the only time i seen 1v1 volks beat riflmen is when ther 4-5 with stg going against NON-upgraded rifles. ur problem if u get stingy with ur munitions, dont blame OKW

You are completely out of my message from my post. I love people who grab one word of my post an then make a diploma about it

You are completely out of my message from my post. I love people who grab one word of my post an then make a diploma about it

And what was the point ? Usf get the best a-move unit, doctrinal early sturm-like ass grens and a mortar to support it, ukf get an incredibly powerful defensive mainline, a powerful vickers capable of countering even green cover squad with high dps, UC, that can get flamethrower or portable hmg (old kubel, anyone ?), and soviets, that can use uberpenals, flamethrower, demo, doctrinal hmg, m3.

ALL of those factions get tier 0 healing station.
Volks are inferior compared to penals, riflemen, IS.
Kubel is inferior to UC, m3 (more nerfs incoming)
Sturmpioneers drop like flies unless the perfect point blank flank (for which you don't have any smoke) and any double mainline engagement will make you trade negatively if not get wiped even with such flank.

If okw early game was barely decent it wouldn't ALWAYS need to go for luchs..

Remember when Volksgrenadiers were supposed to be slightly better static conscripts? Then they got slightly buffed each time until now they are ridiculously good for their cost. They can build sandbags, now they have flame grenade to force any unit out of cover or buildings/ Panzerfaust. STG44 and all for 250 mp haha. They are rivaling rifleman for a lot cheaper costs.

Everyone bitches about Penals being spammed, but have you tried using Conscripts or maxims against OKW? It's about as effective as just building combat engineers.

I remember..
So much shermans/t34 killed with "slighly better than conscripts" volks

And what was the point ? Usf get the best a-move unit, doctrinal early sturm-like ass grens and a mortar to support it, ukf get an incredibly powerful defensive mainline, a powerful vickers capable of countering even green cover squad with high dps, UC, that can get flamethrower or portable hmg (old kubel, anyone ?), and soviets, that can use uberpenals, flamethrower, demo, doctrinal hmg, m3.

ALL of those factions get tier 0 healing station.
Volks are inferior compared to penals, riflemen, IS.
Kubel is inferior to UC, m3 (more nerfs incoming)
Sturmpioneers drop like flies unless the perfect point blank flank (for which you don't have any smoke) and any double mainline engagement will make you trade negatively if not get wiped even with such flank.

To get started, we were only talking about USF and OKW, not OKW vs other match ups. So do not bring other factions to the discussions.


Heads down OKW has better early game compared to the USF because of reasons I have pointed out.

Volks beat rifles at long range in cover and cost less. This is fine for me, volks early game should stay as is.

But when you add to this balanced match up a Starting Assault unit - Sturms, that can beat any USF early game unit (especially echelons - USF starting unit) and a well armored minute 0 vehicle then you have a goddamn problem.

With starting Sturms and and Kubel, you can attack any position on the map you want because they MUST BEAT starting echelons. This way you will get a map lead from minute 0. You can abuse it as you want - capping more ground or seizing key positions. Options are infinite. But any way you will have a huge advantage and USF player will had a hard time to recapture key positions and map.

Kubel can cap freely the map (thanks to its capping bunus) while volks use superior positions gained by sturms in order to slow USF progress (rifles cannot defeat volks in green cover at long range).

Them Kubel and Sturms can attack together (punshing mechanic) to force any defensive rifles to retreat.


The problem is that USF needs an early game fuel lead in order to compete with OKW (they cannot counter Luchs without fuel - captain + stuart and they cannot turn game into their favour without lieutenant + m20). So all in all the OKW will always have map lead early on against USF which will snowball even harder with Luchs to counter any infantry (and m20), followed by Puma to couter (late) Stuart.

Later on the OKW will either finish the game by 8CP Ostwind (no need to tech) or if USF player goes Armor Company he will go Commander Panther to defeat M10 hordes and end the game.


This is not my hypothesis, this is a fact. A conclusion I came with after playing countless games in top tier environment and watching top player streams.

Currently OKW > USF, unless the map heavily favours USF or the OKW player makes a greviour mistake and/or is outplayed.

Sorry

If okw early game was barely decent it wouldn't ALWAYS need to go for luchs..

This is a lie. Every player goes the most optimal build order in order to win the game. Even if OKW early game was better, players would go Luchs, to finish the game.

Or do you remember that SOV didnt go OP t70 in 2016 because they had OP Spammaxims ? I dont.

Players tend to mix powerful stuff together because it works. If you multiple strong early game with strong shock vehicle you will easily snowball into victory. And that what it is all about. Winning, not playing with craptrack in Medic HQ.

Look at DevMs USF Guide. He is one of the best CoH players in the world. And wonder what, his whole guide is about snowballing and multiplying your early game advantage by mid game OP stuff and finish it by OP lategame stuff. Thats how it works, sunshine

https://www.coh2.org/guides/44135/devm-s-usf-without-tears

PS: OKW has healing, actually 10 munnition for a single squad heal is not the worst price I have even seen Spending 400 mp and 30 fuel to unluck healing (ambu) and bars seems a much worse deal to me than having everything on a place but having to spend some munny for occasional heal.

Volks don't beat rifles, it's an extremely.close matchup determined by the better cover, the time each squad need to get cover and rng, volks outdps rifles of less than a dps point at 35 range, and have less RA, so they theoretically have the upper hand.

And ? RE has good enough pen and dps to deal with kubel if it gets cover, while you may need 2 rifles.
If you use RE as cappers you won't have issues as long as kubel isn't supported.

If there was a "goddam" problem GCS wouldn't have showed a 33% okw vic rate.

Except that nobody is supposed to let a total of 510 mp (210 and 300) face a friendly 200mp unit.

1)Sturm are the target obviously, you talk like they have human panzer tactician, but they don't, maps hardly support such playstyle.
2 rifles will make short work of sturm at any range, without losing more than 2 modelsn

2) "volks are the human horde of death much powercreep muh"
Covered volks + mortar = moving volks or 3-2-1 low life model volks

3) pushing mechanic is BS, but not everyone goes for it. I aksed you why okw is OP and you come with a totally arcadish feature like that ?
And kubel pushing end as you have snares...meanwhile talking about usf m10....
I wonder how much would m10 and cromwell cost if we balanced those considering their crushing...

"This is not my hypothesis, this is a fact. A conclusion I came with after playing countless games in top tier environment and watching top player streams."
It's not actually, no empirical data but your "experience" shows that
An example of empirical data: https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-update

UNLESS....you are talking about some teamgames crap mode ?

"PS: OKW has healing, actually 10 munnition for a single squad heal is not the worst price I have even seen Spending 400 mp and 30 fuel to unluck healing (ambu) and bars seems a much worse deal to me than having everything on a place but having to spend some munny for occasional heal."

Cost is irrelevant if taken into a vacuum.

Usf: 1190mp 280fuel
Ambulance: 250mp 10fuel
Racks: 150mp 15 fuel
Grenades: 150mp 25fuel
Tier 1: 200mp 50 fuel (free 300mp unit)
Tier 2: 200mp 60 fuel (free 300mp unit)
Tier 3: 240mp 120fuel

Okw: 1400mp 270 fuel
1st truck: 100mp 15 fuel
2nd truck: 100mp 15 fuel
3rd truck: 100mp 15 fuel
Tier 1: 200mp 25 fuel
Tier 2: 200mp 50 fuel
Tier 3: 200mp 120 fuel
Medical upgrade: 100mp 15 fuel
FRP upgrade: 300mp
Repair station: 100mp 15 fuel

It isn't any better, okw pay ten less fuel, has an immobile healing station, usf has a mobile tier 0 healing station reagardless of teching with a mobile frp

Ps. Yeah seems a good deal...oh wait
Medical Supplies: "Allows your Infantry Section to distribute medical supplies"

30 muni, constant healing of everything...

Axis is much better, but not because the game are op for then, in fact they have much better tanks in real life than in the game, they are nerfed but are a way better than that crap allies tanks, the difference on quality is even bigger than are in game. But allies have better rockets than axis and better rng's.

And ? RE has good enough pen and dps to deal with kubel .

If there was a "goddam" problem GCS wouldn't have showed a 33% okw vic rate.

2 rifles will make short work of sturm at any range, without losing more than 2 modelsn


"This is not my hypothesis, this is a fact. A conclusion I came with after playing countless games in top tier environment and watching top player streams."
It's not actually, no empirical data but your "experience" shows that
An example of empirical data: https://www.coh2.org/topic/60897/gcs-main-round-stats-w-update

Cost is irrelevant if taken into a vacuum.

Usf: 1190mp 280fuel
Ambulance: 250mp 10fuel
Racks: 150mp 15 fuel
Grenades: 150mp 25fuel..........

Hi Jagd. I think some of your points that are up to debate.

For example you say that Sturms cannot beat a riflemen squad, this is just not true. If sturms have closed the gap or are at close range its an instant retreat or lose your riflemen squad. Honestly it all comes down to "Did you pick off a sturm model on approach?" To see who wins. Thing is Sturms got pretty crazy received accuracy.

Second off, Riflemen only get AT nades WHEN they vet up. That would imply they are winning. Pushing brits/USf early game out of cover for a while isn't too uncommon.

Third did you see what factions were picked AGAINST OkW? Soviets were picked a lot, and lend lease was picked a lot. DSHKAs would cause a damn nightmare for okw and penals + M4 scout car can actually beat the crap out of OKW early game. So the way to beat OKW is to use even more busted shit? Brits can also go somewhat toe to toe with OKW early game.

Lastly by unlocking your first truck you get a weapon rack, and grenades, so you save 40 fuel and 300 MP by teching up.

I wouldnt mind seeing the lava nade move to sturms (maybe as a vet 1?, maybe a COST reduction at vet 1?) As aaide from the first engagment or 2 they really lose their "elite sturm status" in favour of "lets patch that tank up in 6 seconds flat" mode and i think flame nade is TOO accesable on volks (yes cons have one, but they pay a bit extra for that and besides, asymmetric balance or something like that)

T1 i think could be addressed by making the flak trak a smaller target size and/or immune to small arms. Its a great, fun unit but its already got enough drawbacks (the tech, requires deployment, low health) that i dont think it needs to be counterable by rifle fire. It needs to offer an attractive alternative to the luchs i think (or be attractive at ALL i guess) vs just nerfing the luchs, whom as light tanks go i THINK is balanced.

But aside from do it all volks and creeping death raks (them i think should only be able to camo in friendly territory) okw is MOSTLY fine. Tweaking those aould offer a better view of what IS strong/weak instead of JUST volks all the god damned time

Hi Jagd. I think some of your points that are up to debate.

For example you say that Sturms cannot beat a riflemen squad, this is just not true. If sturms have closed the gap or are at close range its an instant retreat or lose your riflemen squad. Honestly it all comes down to "Did you pick off a sturm model on approach?" To see who wins. Thing is Sturms got pretty crazy received accuracy.

Second off, Riflemen only get AT nades WHEN they vet up. That would imply they are winning. Pushing brits/USf early game out of cover for a while isn't too uncommon.

Third did you see what factions were picked AGAINST OkW? Soviets were picked a lot, and lend lease was picked a lot. DSHKAs would cause a damn nightmare for okw and penals + M4 scout car can actually beat the crap out of OKW early game. So the way to beat OKW is to use even more busted shit? Brits can also go somewhat toe to toe with OKW early game.

Lastly by unlocking your first truck you get a weapon rack, and grenades, so you save 40 fuel and 300 MP by teching up.

A riflemen squad /=/ 2 riflemen squads
Panzergrenadiers, even if 2 enemy squads have been blobbed, can deal high damage before retreating if at point blank, sturm is weaker, and has no scaling, patch will probably fix this.

Mainline vet fast, they will have rifle at nade before min 5-6 max.
It's still cheese, it's not ok to consider it a balance point.
By the same logic we should give any ostheer vehicle more hqp because of pershing double shoot abuse for example.

Yet factional showdown with banned doctrines saw no duska, and soviets still dominated, mainly because scount car and penal terminator..
Additionally doctrines are pretty much part of an army, this whole DBP is focusing on balancing doctrinal units, pfus and heavy TD..if soviets are op with some doctrines soviets ARE OP.

No okw don't save anything, coviniently forgetting that okw frp is 300 mp, not free ? That okw medics (far worse than ambulance) cost 5 fuel more ?
That okw pays for trucks, three of them, for a total of 45 additional fuel ?
Summing up everything, okw teching is just as expensive as usf (with the disadvantage of destructable hq's).

I wouldnt mind seeing the lava nade move to sturms (maybe as a vet 1?, maybe a COST reduction at vet 1?) As aaide from the first engagment or 2 they really lose their "elite sturm status" in favour of "lets patch that tank up in 6 seconds flat" mode and i think flame nade is TOO accesable on volks (yes cons have one, but they pay a bit extra for that and besides, asymmetric balance or something like that)

T1 i think could be addressed by making the flak trak a smaller target size and/or immune to small arms. Its a great, fun unit but its already got enough drawbacks (the tech, requires deployment, low health) that i dont think it needs to be counterable by rifle fire. It needs to offer an attractive alternative to the luchs i think (or be attractive at ALL i guess) vs just nerfing the luchs, whom as light tanks go i THINK is balanced.

But aside from do it all volks and creeping death raks (them i think should only be able to camo in friendly territory) okw is MOSTLY fine. Tweaking those aould offer a better view of what IS strong/weak instead of JUST volks all the god damned time

Cons don't pay any extra for molotov..it's all factored into a tree which cost as much fuel as okw tree.

I would just cut 15 fuel from the price
It's 55 fuel, way too much for the null scaling it has.

40 fuel is honest considering small arms fire weaknesses and that any faction gets atg still much before.

If the "creeping rack" gets green shield and on par accuracy/ range i'm ok

Cons don't pay any extra for molotov..it's all factored into a tree which cost as much fuel as okw tree.

I would just cut 15 fuel from the price
It's 55 fuel, way too much for the null scaling it has.

40 fuel is honest considering small arms fire weaknesses and that any faction gets atg still much before.

If the "creeping rack" gets green shield and on par accuracy/ range i'm ok

For 40 fuel and 250mp as a soviet player you can unlock a snare and molitov for cons, for 40 fuel (im sorry i dont recall the MP for the okw teching) as okw you can unlock your better (but more expensive) version of the molitov, a faust, a soft retreat point, 4 new units (for a total of 7 units to chose from, including indirect fire, an MG, AT and recon units) and a weapon upgrade for volks if thats a factored in cost someone is getting royally screwed...


40 fuel could make it a good opportunity buy, i would embrace a trial of that at the very least, i just feel that in the few times i HAVE built one its hit and miss for small arms, its going to push off anything without AT ANYWAYS i feel like having to top its health up all the time just makes it more unattractive and besides if the m5 can be bulletproof and fotm i dont see why the flak trak would be broken when requiring to be stationary (even as an upgrade like the m20)

Being able to ambush from friendly territory, garrison and retreat are all fantastic advantages for an AT gun that costs as little as it does, being able to creep into enemy territory and hunt vulnerable targets (katys and ambulances) only to then retreat is extremely powerful, much more so than its price point should allow. Plus its just cheesy and lame, particularly cancerous in team games. If for some reason the 270mp unit feels underwhelming losing its Jaeger role id be open to a counter buff, but ultimately being able to COH1 sniper but with OHK vehicles is a bad mechanic

For 40 fuel and 250mp as a soviet player you can unlock a snare and molitov for cons, for 40 fuel (im sorry i dont recall the MP for the okw teching) as okw you can unlock your better (but more expensive) version of the molitov, a faust, a soft retreat point, 4 new units (for a total of 7 units to chose from, including indirect fire, an MG, AT and recon units) and a weapon upgrade for volks if thats a factored in cost someone is getting royally screwed...


40 fuel could make it a good opportunity buy, i would embrace a trial of that at the very least, i just feel that in the few times i HAVE built one its hit and miss for small arms, its going to push off anything without AT ANYWAYS i feel like having to top its health up all the time just makes it more unattractive and besides if the m5 can be bulletproof and fotm i dont see why the flak trak would be broken when requiring to be stationary (even as an upgrade like the m20)

Being able to ambush from friendly territory, garrison and retreat are all fantastic advantages for an AT gun that costs as little as it does, being able to creep into enemy territory and hunt vulnerable targets (katys and ambulances) only to then retreat is extremely powerful, much more so than its price point should allow. Plus its just cheesy and lame, particularly cancerous in team games. If for some reason the 270mp unit feels underwhelming losing its Jaeger role id be open to a counter buff, but ultimately being able to COH1 sniper but with OHK vehicles is a bad mechanic

Of course, if you take everything into a vacuum...

Okw: 1400mp 270 fuel
1st truck: 100mp 15 fuel
2nd truck: 100mp 15 fuel
3rd truck: 100mp 15 fuel
Tier 1: 200mp 25 fuel
Tier 2: 200mp 50 fuel
Tier 3: 200mp 120 fuel
Medical upgrade: 100mp 15 fuel
FRP upgrade: 300mp
Repair station: 100mp 15 fuel

Soviets: 1300mp 245fuel
Medical hq: 250mp
Molotov: 125mp 15fuel
At grenades:125mp 25fuel
Tier 1:160mp 10fuel
Tier 2:160mp 20fuel
Tier 3:240mp 85fuel
Tier 4:240mp 90fuel

Buff could be both hp and fuel cost.
Being 2 shotted by at gun is terrible for something not mobile like that.

Alternatives could be buff cost (reduce of 10) and give it an hull down ability that make it mune to atg/tanks (with a building like hp pool) fire but decrewable and recrewable by the enemy.
Make it 180degrees arc but longer range than normal flak and more vision according to the scaling and it will surely become a useful tool.

It's irrelevant, that goddam thing can't hit for shit and dies frontally to tanks at mid range...after the crew nerf, it will die frontally to unfantry nontheless, in seconds..
Every unit has an ability, being able to spot for itself, target buildings, snare vehicles and use shells that increase atg dps to highest levels compared to any at source are all powerful abilities, and all those atg got decent range and frontal protection..