The Metagame: HMG Spam

As it stands right now, the entire metagame is focused on spamming HMG teams. There's no need for infantry when you've got extremely durable, high damage units that totally nullify other infantry.

Almost every game I've played now for weeks has been centered around the fact my opponent is spamming the shit out of HMG teams. Whether I was playing as Germans or Soviets, I was dealing with the same thing. This last patch has exacerbated things massively now that the Maxim is no longer a straight up counter to the MG42.

This creates a tonne of issues. The primary one is that it's boring as hell. I have no problem beating this strategy. In fact, having played against it so many times I find it laughably easy to manhandle. Unless I'm against an especially good player, of course. The point I'm making however, is that facing this strategy nails me into a single form of game play. Any deviation is a loss.

This problem is a huge issue in every single game mode. It's present in 1v1, but it scales ridiculously well in 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 and it makes the games monotonous, repetitive, and generally frustrating. In the case where you overcome this strategy, it's a shitty game because it posed no challenge. In the case where you lose to this, you get pissed off because you feel you were cheated by a really shitty way of playing the game.

And that's what it is. Shitty.

The problem stems from a number of notable issues. I should note that I'm noticing MG42 spam way more than Maxim spam. But that's more than likely because I'm playing more Soviet than German lately so it's just more likely for me to face it due to higher number of games.

The teams are simply too cheap for what they do. When I play Germans my first unit out is an MG42 and I can have one out by the time my Soviet opponent has started building his second Conscript - if not earlier. This is, frankly ridiculous.

While an early MG42 should be an option, it shouldn't be immediate. The first unit I meet these days is more often than not an MG42 running to its position and setting up in some building. For how effective both HMG teams are in the game, they should have a substantially higher cost. Due to the incredible levels of durability for both squads due to the model count, the 240MP cost is a no-brainer investment.

The only barrier to entry is on the Soviet part, where you have to ignore your M3 to get your Maxims. This is why you see Maxim spam less frequently. The choice is between your Maxim spam cheese, or your counter to your opponent's MG42 spam cheese.

The other problem that's causing this is infantry damage. There is no reasonable counter to set up teams that doesn't involve you blowing a load on them every time you see them. A simple flank does not work. When my Conscripts or Grenadiers run up to a HMG team and get behind them, they should be fucking wasting them, yet they can be plinking away for a long time before my opponent is dead. In that time I can either be focused to death myself or they can just set up somewhere else. Or the oh-so-wonderful third option that is all too common, is that they have another set up team somewhere further back.

The point is, that flanking is totally unrewarded. The TTK is far too high. If we were talking about Pioneer squads or Combat Engineer squads(With no upgrades), then, yeah, I'd be more inclined to say standing there for so much time is acceptable. But that is not so. Even elite infantry like Panzer Grenadiers can be standing there for a long time waiting for those models to drop, and a Pioneer squad is literally incapable of flanking because the 5 models out DPS them.

This game's time-to-kill in infantry vs. infantry combat is what many would argue as "catering to the casuals". It's significantly higher than its predecessor where the only time you'd have such high TTKs is if both squads are behind green cover. Not so in Company of Heroes 2, it's way more forgiving of players not paying attention to their squads.

This is the root cause of the HMG proliferation issue. It takes too damn long to kill a HMG team once you flank them. Where you should be rewarded, you're horribly shit on by the game's mechanics. In CoH2, the answer they seem to give you is to use grenades to make up for it. This isn't a good solution. Not only does it force you into buying certain upgrades, it forces you to buy certain units specifically for their grenades. The only reason I buy Penal Battalions is so I can throw Satchel Charges on set up teams. While I'm all for a system where you need certain things to counter units, I shouldn't need to go up a tier and spam munitions everywhere so I can benefit from a flank the game should reward me for by default.

As you can see, this leads to a number of knock-on issues. Many units get over looked because they don't fit into this metagame. Strategies are pushed to the back because they can't be incorporated into the MG-spam/counter-MG spam games. Units that would otherwise be useful are overshadowed.

tl;dr

The current metagame of HMG spam is making the game boring and monotonous. It's not fun to play against and I don't believe it's fun to play with. HMG teams aren't costing enough and they aren't enough of a risk-reward investment. Flanking is extremely unrewarding and the damage output of infantry squads is a massive contributor to this. The product of all of this is leading to sterile, repetitive match ups that are locking out interesting strategies.

This issue needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

Reduce the health of mg42s crew members (and maybe other support weapon teams) to 60 instead of 80.

Don´t reduce the crew number, snipers are already strong enough.

As it stands right now, the entire metagame is focused on spamming HMG teams.

Is it? This hasn't been my experience at all.

This issue needs to be acknowledged and addressed.

Just because you say this is an issue that needs to be acknowledged doesn't make it true.

Is it? This hasn't been my experience at all.



Just because you say this is an issue that needs to be acknowledged doesn't make it true.

I personally find spamming HMGs not an issue, because it has counters. Sadly, the counter to it is not flanking. The TTK a mg42 team is too long: If you get flanked, you can easily pack up, get a few steps back and set up again - all while under fire.

Either reduce support weapon crew survivability, or give conscripts more dps - i would like to see an svt40 upgrade for 60 munitions.

I agree that TTK on support weapons is too long and flanking is unrewarding. I just don't think this is the critical issue that OP is making it out to be. People on this forum have a habit of massively dramatising little points as if the game is utterly broken because of [insert niggling issue here].

totally agree with most of your points, not so much on the grenades one.

but i tend to think infantry armour plays an important role too. conscripts and grenadiers already miss each other and other infantry in cover, on top of that, they have to penetrate in order to do damage, leading to very long infantry fights.

i would rather see this armour system toned down and keep infantry fights slightly shorter.

I agree that TTK on support weapons is too long and flanking is unrewarding. I just don't think this is the critical issue that OP is making it out to be. People on this forum have a habit of massively dramatising little points as if the game is utterly broken because of [insert niggling issue here].

I can't speak for everyone, obviously.

With that said, it's not like I can't beat this strategy. If I lost all the time and bitched about it you could probably pass this off as whining. I believe I've raised some very legitimate concerns that are contributing to what I've described here. You or others may not consider it boring gameplay, but I think the take home message here is that HMG teams are too cheap, and too durable against small arms and that has lead to them being a no-brainer investment.

In that alone, they should be addressed. In CoH when you were flanked by a rifle squad etc. you stood a very real chance of losing your team if you didn't retreat almost immediately. This was balanced out by how effective MG teams were at locking down an area and that made them a risk-reward investment that you had to think about.

It's not like that in CoH2, where a HMG team is as given as a Conscript or a Grenadier - especially for the Germans, for obvious reasons. You have the same effectiveness that HMG teams had in CoH, but without any of the serious risk. The issue all comes down to cheapness and TTK.

Not finding MG spam a huge problem either.

That said, I totally agree that not rewarding players flanking is quite sad.

Minimum range on HMGs would fix this.

Minimum range on HMGs would fix this.

I don't get exactly why relic still insists HMGs are still viable combat units. I mean, who needs a decent amount of mainline infantry when you can cap/pin/kill with MGs.

I dont agree with all the points being made, but some of them, most importantly that flanking has been toned down to the point that it looks ridicilous. A combination of the low damage inflicted by infantry, and the large crews. In my oppinion, increasing crews for both sides was a horrible idea, because it makes them too durable, and dosent punish you for leaving heavy weapons unprotected. I really dont understand how and why they messed this up when the pretty much nailed it in vCOH.

Fix the flanking and voulnerability of heavy weapons, and I think the issu would be solved.

Mgs isnt rly that much of a problem when u use mortars and snipers but M3 spamm (flamer+sniper+guards)is the real problem especially if soviet is so aggresive and you loose all troops in retreat!

Not finding MG spam a huge problem either.

That said, I totally agree that not rewarding players flanking is quite sad.

+ buzz lightyear

Mgs isnt rly that much of a problem when u use mortars and snipers but M3 spamm (flamer+sniper+guards)is the real problem especially if soviet is so aggresive and you loose all troops in retreat!

^^^Here...I played against a guy who was a total scrub, I was dominating the early game. He wouldn't even retreat his units...ALL THE SUDDEN HERE COME 4 SCOUT CARS WITH FLAMERS AND GUARDS and it was just wave after wave after wave. Over and over - You can't escape.

Just a few quick points, we are aware that HMG are fairly dominant in the current meta game, partly as a result of their durability. It is something we are hoping to resolve in the future.

Keep in mind though, a simple health decrease will only resolve that issue so long as the original crew retains the weapon. Once you recrew it with another squad, the weapon team will take on the new durability values of the crewing entities.

edit: perhaps a received damage modifier would be a better suggestion

Just a few quick points, we are aware that HMG are fairly dominant in the current meta game, partly as a result of their durability. It is something we are hoping to resolve in the future.

Keep in mind though, a simple health decrease will only resolve that issue so long as the original crew retains the weapon. Once you recrew it with another squad, the weapon team will take on the new durability values of the crewing entities.

edit: perhaps a received damage modifier would be a better suggestion

Obviously, im no expert, but it seemed to work great in vCOH. Would it be possible to just balance them the same way?

The hmgs are fine as is rrelic plesse fix the more pressing matters. Hmg is least of anyone worries.

Just a few quick points, we are aware that HMG are fairly dominant in the current meta game, partly as a result of their durability. It is something we are hoping to resolve in the future.

Keep in mind though, a simple health decrease will only resolve that issue so long as the original crew retains the weapon. Once you recrew it with another squad, the weapon team will take on the new durability values of the crewing entities.

edit: perhaps a received damage modifier would be a better suggestion

From what I remember before the stats site went down, don't the infantry in CoH2 in general have more health than CoH1? Could the solution to this situation simply be to increase the damage output of squads across the board?

A received damage modifier could definitely work, either way. I was thinking along the same lines myself as a much more realistic solution. It provides the same end result for this problem whilst minimally effecting other aspects of the game.

I'm more for just trying to increase small arms fire in general, so all infantry fights happen a bit faster than they do now. Maybe up the health of 222 and M3 a bit to compensate.

yes! mg teams are spammed too much and makes games boring, they should vulnerable and require more skill to use, not something that noobs can spam out in the hundreds stopping the enemy at their tracks, making infantry useless even when flanking.