Stuka dive bombing in DBP

there have been times that I can't even hear it, no sound, next moment you see a big nuke and all your army is dead.

Interesting definition of stronger, unless you think that people actually hang around to get hit by the second and third shots from railway.

Railway is 1 shot on target + 2 somewhere random:
600 damage, aoe radius 12, lethal radius ~5.6 for first shot
600 damage, aoe radius 12, lethal radius ~8.1 for two following ones

Patched Stuka
750 damage, aoe radius 15, lethal radius ~10.9

Unpatched Stuka has a lethal radius of 15. The patched version would still have 3.7 times the area of lethal damage compared to the railway. And it's doing 60 damage even at at radius 15 compared to 30 damage from railway at 12.

EDIT: fixing lethal radiuses, me bad at math

Thanks for providing the kill radius but I am afraid you are looking at the wrong files. The damage from stuka is 400 not 750. I just tested on a T3-4/76.

there have been times that I can't even hear it, no sound, next moment you see a big nuke and all your army is dead.

Have you tested the ability in the Patch. Because what you are describing sound like the live version and it was due the critical kill that has been removed.

Interesting definition of stronger, unless you think that people actually hang around to get hit by the second and third shots from railway.

Railway is 1 shot on target + 2 somewhere random:
600 damage, aoe radius 12, lethal radius ~5.6 for first shot
600 damage, aoe radius 12, lethal radius ~8.1 for two following ones

Patched Stuka
750 damage, aoe radius 15, lethal radius ~10.9

Unpatched Stuka has a lethal radius of 15. The patched version would still have 3.7 times the area of lethal damage compared to the railway. And it's doing 60 damage even at at radius 15 compared to 30 damage from railway at 12.

EDIT: fixing lethal radiuses, me bad at math

I think you are looking at stuka_blablab_mp when the game uses the one without the "_mp" because fuck consistency.

No they are not, they are almost identical , one is baptized "plane" the other "artillery", Stuka gets 1 hit, Gustav gets 3 that are actually stronger.

They fulfil different roles. The whole powerlevel of the Stuka dive comes from the lack of flares and having to localise the location through sound. While it takes several time to drop from the moment you choose a location, your opponent has a smaller windows to react cause the sound starts to play way later.

Gustav gives you 1 single precise shot with flares and then you get RNG shots around the location, which is more of a denial of zone or killing blow for enemies which are immobilised.

I wouldn't mind it been more effective against non braced emplacements, considering the cost increase but one has to remember something.

-Stuka bomb strike aoe distance from 3.75/5.625/7.5 to 3.75/7.5/11.25, mid damage from 0.15 to 0.35 (large buff)
-It seeems it added death critical on damage (so it's the same been near or far away from the explosion).
-Pre ninja buff: lethal range 6.5
-After ninja buff: lethal range 15

So after getting the ability fixed, it should be around 9.5 lethal AoE with the current numbers and with a higher far damage before the ninja buffs.
The real question should be: after "ninja-fixing", is it worth a ±40% buff on infantry lethality an increase of 40muni?

They fulfil different roles. The whole powerlevel of the Stuka dive comes from the lack of flares and having to localise the location through sound. While it takes several time to drop from the moment you choose a location, your opponent has a smaller windows to react cause the sound starts to play way later.

I explained that apart from smoke they both are precision "artillery" delayed shots, suitable for stationary targets.

Stuka dive bomb has nothing to with IL-2 precision bombing (which is more similar to Stuka fragmentation bombing) and imo the closest thing to it, for comparison reasons is the Gustav.
If in your opinion it should be compared to another ability feel free to explain with which.

The real question should be: after "ninja-fixing", is it worth a ±40% buff on infantry lethality an increase of 40muni?

I fail to see any relevance to what happened many patches ago. Imo the questions is if the ability working in a good way or "cheese way", if it cost efficient and how it compares with similar abilities.

If the problem is the luck of smoke I would suggest once more to introduce smoke or a mini map warning and adjust the ability.


The patched ability will probably be unable to take out 3 zis gun even if they are close one next to other.

It the problem is the luck of smoke I would suggest once more to introduce smoke or a mini map warning and adjust the ability.

It's a precicion bombing. They didn't use flares for that.

It's a precicion bombing. They didn't use flares for that.

Couldn't resist.
Show Spoiler

Have you tried the ability in Patch? what are you thoughts?

I think you are looking at stuka_blablab_mp when the game uses the one without the "_mp" because fuck consistency.

Yeah, that was it. God knows what that _mp one is for then, seeing as TOW had its own version anyway. Reduced lethal radius, still 3 times larger infantry kill area than on gustav.

Yeah, that was it. God knows what that _mp one is for then, seeing as TOW had its own version anyway. Reduced lethal radius, still 3 times larger infantry kill radius than on gustav.

According to elchino7 (if I understand correctly)the Kill radius of stuka in the Patch is 9.5 while according to you the kill radius of the Gustav is 5.6 and 8.1 so its hardly 3 times more.

Gustav might have less lethal radius per shot but has 3 shot and does 1x1.5 more damage to structures and vehicles it hits in the near radius.

If one consider the stuka dive bomb a specialized "team weapons killer" is not that impressive in that role compared to other types of attacks. One can probably score more kills with Stuka "fragmentation bombing" that comes at CP10 instead of 12 and cost 180 MU or even the "light artillery barrage".

So the only thing stuka has going for it is the noise instead of smoke mechanism, that as drChengele describe make little difference in small modes and can make a big difference in bigger modes. The ability is still strong vs a major or Forward assembly but only the player in the receiving end is not aware and does cancel the FRP and hit the retreat button.

Imo the ability needs adjustment or redesign.

According to elchino7 (if I understand correctly)the Kill radius of stuka in the Patch is 9.5 while according to you the kill radius of the Gustav is 5.6 and 8.1 so its hardly 3 times more.

π * 9.5^2 ~= 3 * π * 5.6^2

π * 9.5^2 ~= 3 * π * 5.6^2

Are we takling about radius or Area? because cruzz is writing about radius and not area

Yeah, that was it. God knows what that _mp one is for then, seeing as TOW had its own version anyway. Reduced lethal radius, still 3 times larger infantry kill radius than on gustav.

...

You can' compare it with anything, cause there's no many explosive offmap which relies on a sound base cue to detect where it's gonna fall. The whole identity of the ability is that. It seems you want a little weaker single shot Railway artillery which is not what the ability is intending to do.

The ability was one of the most useful since release back in 2013 and was great till 2 years later they over-ninja-buffed it. No one asked for a buff and there we go, +400% increase on area lethality.

Now the ability is back to square one with an increase on AoE lethality based on original damage and an increase on cost. I don't mind certain offmaps been better at anti emplacements tbh, which is a change it could be tried but i think the current performance/cost is fine, specially if there are intended nerfs/adjustments to other offmaps as well.

I doubt that even if it shot down(?) it will fail to deliver the payload.

it fails

Stuka dived bomb always take very long to deliver payload and hit anything not stationary more luck then anything else.
(around 15 secs?)

for enemy they only hear the sound which starts at less than 15 seconds

You can' compare it with anything, cause there's no many explosive offmap which relies on a sound base cue to detect where it's gonna fall. The whole identity of the ability is that. It seems you want a little weaker single shot Railway artillery which is not what the ability is intending to do.

The ability was one of the most useful since release back in 2013 and was great till 2 years later they over-ninja-buffed it. No one asked for a buff and there we go, +400% increase on area lethality.

Now the ability is back to square one with an increase on AoE lethality based on original damage and an increase on cost. I don't mind certain offmaps been better at anti emplacements tbh, which is a change it could be tried but i think the current performance/cost is fine, specially if there are intended nerfs/adjustments to other offmaps as well.

History
Show Spoiler

The patched ability currently can be used effectively against:
1) Emplacements
Compared to other abilities it will do little damage even if they are unbraced, (only advantage the sound warning, that might prevent using the brace if available)

2) Support weapons
In a normal game it will probably take out 1-2 (maybe even 3)of them out. Other abilities can do the same cheaper earlier. (only advantage the sound warning, that make it perform differently across the modes, since the other abilities also give little time for support weapon to move out of AOE)

3) ML20
Other abilities are cheaper and come earlier.

4) FRP
The ability is still OP if it is not detect due to sound, around the same with other abilities if detect slightly late and a waste of munition if detected early.

Instead of assuming what I suggest allow me to explain:
1) Add the smoke mechanism and adjust the ability with the rest of them.

2) Overplay the sound mechanism but reduce the effect. My idea of achieving is ability that works similar to what stuka dive bomber did in real life, and that was spread terror. The ability becomes cheap and comes earlier, does reduced damage and has a smaller kill radius that can take out a single support weapon or decrew a ML20. So its main advantage is that it force players to move their units while trying to detect where its going to drop, but even if they fail to do so the punishment is smaller.

this way one removes the frustration of using the ability (either doing too much or too little)

3) As a precision weapon it takes the role of taking out emplacements or other structures, serving as late doctrinal counter to them. For that imo it will need high damage on impact point and smaller kill radius and do enough damage even in enemy uses brace.

If one like less drastic solution I would suggest greatly increasing damage in the impact on point (800-600) so that a direct hit on target is noticeable and drop damage faster so that the kill radius remains about that same. That would allow the ability to useful even against targets that are not infantry.

it fails

Comparing stuka to IL-2 is not helpful, IL-2 can be compared to Stuka fragmentation bombing.
Show Spoiler
Have you tested the Dive bombing in DBP? What are you though on the ability.

It seem that that was incorrect, Ml20 has 400 HP same at the damage of stuka in the near AOE (3.75?). A direct hit (within of 3.75) will kill it.


Il-2 drops 4 bombs (around 320 damage each?). A direct strike on Tiger will usally deal from 600-900 damage. While a Is-2 will take less than half damage from a stuka direct hit.

In live most killing ability of the Stuka comes from a critical on infantries making it better only vs infantries ,this feature has been removed in patch.


Railway give little warning also. In the patch if far more cost efficient ability.

The man issues of Stuka dive bomb is that it is available with Elephant and has low CD (and critical that has been removed).

Its arguments about damage, but what if this units are not vs tanks, but vs arty, at guns or blob, with what arty EZ to kill infatry or at guns, wiht soviet il-2 where are smoke or dive bomb ?

Its arguments about damage, but what if this units are not vs tanks, but vs arty, at guns or blob, with what arty EZ to kill infatry or at guns, wiht soviet il-2 where are smoke or dive bomb ?

Kill radius can remain the same or even become smaller if needed even if the damage at point of impact is increased.

The ability is frustrating both using and receiving, since it will usually either wipe out everything or simply creates a big hole. Increasing the mu cost simply increase the frustration of player using it if he 200 munition went into creating a crater.

That is why imo it need some changes.

As I pointed out many times comparing it to IL-2 (which more similar to fragmentation bombing)isn't helpful since they use different mechanism and the comparison derails the thread.

Feel free to add your experiences from the ability in DBP weather you where in the giving or receiving end.

with the new changes to AA half tracks, trust me the il-2 planes are destroyed very fastly.

with the new changes to AA half tracks, trust me the il-2 planes are destroyed very fastly.

The performance of the IL-2 is quite irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Have you tested the Dive bombing in DBP? What are you though on the ability.

The performance of the IL-2 is quite irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Have you tested the Dive bombing in DBP? What are you though on the ability.

i was just responding to you since u said planes arent killed.

i will play the patch tonight.

i like the job u are doing. why only on axis unit? dont u want a balanced game?

dont tell me that there arent any allies units that need fixes...

...
i like the job u are doing. why only on axis unit? dont u want a balanced game?

dont tell me that there arent any allies units that need fixes...

If Imo an allied unit is over-nerfed in this patch or an axis units over-buffed will surely comment on it. If in you opinion there such a change in the current patch pls let me know so I can check into it.