Scout Cars

Hey guys,

I play both German / Rus factions and I have to admit that I'm having a gripe with a specific unit when playing either faction. Simply put, it's the scout car, I don't enjoy using it OR playing against it. I feel like I'm being cheesy when I throw a flamethrower unit into it and suddenly I'm doing drive-by's and wrecking retreating squads like no ones business. I feel like as an early game unit, it's still too punishing towards the German player. I don't lean either way, I enjoy both factions, and I believe they both have some balance issues, but since the early game is what every player is going to play through in a multiplayer game (even the less skilled playeres) I figured maybe we could discuss the unit.

When I play as the Germans, I often find that these cars are well, just too good at what they do. They take bullets like crazy, you cannot lay effective non-expensive mines to punish them over extending into your territory (hence the drive by effect), and it seems like the Germans current counters aren't that great at well.... countering. Also, they come at relatively inconvenient times unless you're 100% certain you know your opponent is building scout cars and can get tier 2 up immediately.

Playing the German faction vs scout cars frustrates me because often I feel as though I'm outsmarting or outplaying my opponent, yet still getting punished. Maybe I'll have to get some replays to explain this so I don't sound arrogant, but I usually cover my units and flanks pretty well. In general, I find that my pak's cannot hit the scout cars effectively, my pzgrens will die very fast to flamers (and then maybe even chased down by the scout car that I cannot punish properly with proper mines) and MG's do pretty little damage to them. And the sniper scout car, while not very powerful in itself, can be one hell of a problem when supported properly. I have played opponents who will have a second scout car with guards to back up the scout car with snipers almost instantly shutting down real available counters.

When I play as the soviets, if I do actually decide to use any of these scout car tactics (which I have opted out of doing for a few weeks now) I find that I feel like unless I goof up, my opponent doesn't have a proper way to stop me. As long as i stay at range, I can keep picking away. I can lay normal mines to stop german scout cars, use the marcus car to stop halftrack pushes or scout car spam and then tech up or use this powerful opening to whip out some tech to crush my opponent while they're too busy trying to chase me around the map. I know that most people use the scout cars suicidally, but I think if you are playing a good opponent they will use them more effectively than you can deal with them.

At the end of the day, I think having a scout car to chase down snipers is useful, but I just feel this overwhelming amount of guilt using these things, and when facing them well, the game becomes not fun, not fun in the slightest. I feel like I'm back playing opposing fronts against the PE armored car spam when it was at its peak. While not impossible to defeat, it requires you play far more carefully than your opponent, so I feel as though it may not be a good game mechanic to have since it impacts the early game so heavily. just my thoughts, feel free to criticize.

I sort of feel the same, though clearly not to the same extent. To me they're a little cheese, but not that hard to deal with. However, I feel the issue would be strongly mitigated if Ost had a decent mine option.

I'm delighted when I use it. Because the only time I use them is to shit on those assholes who spam MG42s.

I've also used it for suicide Penal charges. I upgrade a PBatt with flamers, hop in, and charge at the enemy. I kill a lot of shit, and just before my Scout Car goes down, I bail out, throw a Satchel Charge at the biggest clump of enemies(Or set up team) and GTFO. M3 usually goes down by the damage I cause usually pays for itself.

Penal Battalions are so under rated.

I feel exactly the same way as OP. Clowncars are verry effective early game units that really dosent require much skill to get much effect from. There really arent any effective counters until T2.

I'm delighted when I use it. Because the only time I use them is to shit on those assholes who spam MG42s.

I've also used it for suicide Penal charges. I upgrade a PBatt with flamers, hop in, and charge at the enemy. I kill a lot of shit, and just before my Scout Car goes down, I bail out, throw a Satchel Charge at the biggest clump of enemies(Or set up team) and GTFO. M3 usually goes down by the damage I cause usually pays for itself.

Penal Battalions are so under rated.

Yea, MG42 / Maxim flanks aren't even remotely rewarded now and combined with current building strength / combined arms I could see why they frustrate you. I think the main problem is that scout cars are in fact used the way you describe, suicidal (to an extent). I don't think this is good gameplay to be able to use powerful units like these in this manner. However, I guess the current balance dictates these things and why certain units are being used in such ways.

Hah yes, i kinda feel the same way.

On the one side, scout cars can be countered quite handily by panzerfaust if the map provides enough ambush (truesight) opportunites.

On the other side, it sure feels very cheap if you loose a full grenadier squad on retreat to flamers or while trying to panzerfaust the scout car. (15% chance for flame weapons to kill a unit instantly, right?)

The "Marcus car" versus the 222 matchup is also very explosive, and can swing to one way or another very quickly.

It doesn't feel like vCoH, with scout cars there is no real flanking involved. It feels lazy.

I wouldn't want to nerf the soviet scout car, imho it is in it's current state not that much of a problem - it is just not very fun. Remove or leave scout cars, but make flanking with infantry rewarding again.

By the way, relic spoke about laying single patches of anti infantry mines (20 instead of 80 munitions?)as a counter against soviet scout cars - has anyone tried this?

By the way, relic spoke about laying single patches of anti infantry mines (20 instead of 80 munitions?)as a counter against soviet scout cars - has anyone tried this?

You need the full 80 munis to lay the 1/4 of the minefield. It's still pretty inconvenient it means you need to constantly have munis banked. It would be great to just be able to lay 1/4 of the minefield specific to infantry. ( Edit: And light vehicles. )

You need the full 80 munis to lay the 1/4 of the minefield. It's still pretty inconvenient it means you need to constantly have munis banked. It would be great to just be able to lay 1/4 of the minefield specific to infantry. ( Edit: And light vehicles. )

I agree, because almost nobody uses/can afford the full 80 munitions minefield in a early game 1v1 setting.

But does one single minefield patch kill a scout car reliably? CoH2stats where are thou...

Frankly, I feel like I need the scout car to get through the early game. It's the only early game hard counter to an mg42 and allows unit mobility. The only thing I worry about early with an m3 is the grenadier panzerfaust and the 222 scout car. It might be too good, but I don't know about that since the soviet players I have faced tend not to get them.

I feel exactly the same way as OP. Clowncars are verry effective early game units that really dosent require much skill to get much effect from. There really arent any effective counters until T2.

T2 comes so quickly that that's not really an issue is it?

One of the devs noted it does significant damage to the scout car. I personally think the S mines also damage the engine of the scout cars, but I'm not sure since I think i've layed a total of like 10 minefields since alpha lol.

Frankly, I feel like I need the scout car to get through the early game. It's the only early game hard counter to an mg42 and allows unit mobility. The only thing I worry about early with an m3 is the grenadier panzerfaust and the 222 scout car. It might be too good, but I don't know about that since the soviet players I have faced tend not to get them.



T2 comes so quickly that that's not really an issue is it?

It is if you are trying to have any kind of meaningful infantryplay. In vCOH the early counter to mgs would be to outflank it with infantry or jeep/MC. The way the game is now, flanking is out, and in stead the rushingtactic of charging with clowncars head on is the most effective way, wich was never the case in vCOH.

There is several such minor adjustments that makes COH2 more about hard counters and mindles spamming and removes much of the tactical play of vCOH.

Does anyone really think clowncars are any fun?

Yea, MG42 / Maxim flanks aren't even remotely rewarded now and combined with current building strength / combined arms I could see why they frustrate you. I think the main problem is that scout cars are in fact used the way you describe, suicidal (to an extent). I don't think this is good gameplay to be able to use powerful units like these in this manner. However, I guess the current balance dictates these things and why certain units are being used in such ways.

As long as we have this shitty metagame of pure MG spam, it's the only solution.

I really hope some well tweaked balance comes soon tactics like this are just so frustrating to deal with that they make people just walk away from the game.

I feel exactly the same way as OP. Clowncars are verry effective early game units that really dosent require much skill to get much effect from. There really arent any effective counters until T2.

same here

Frankly, I feel like I need the scout car to get through the early game. It's the only early game hard counter to an mg42 and allows unit mobility. The only thing I worry about early with an m3 is the grenadier panzerfaust and the 222 scout car. It might be too good, but I don't know about that since the soviet players I have faced tend not to get them.

T2 comes so quickly that that's not really an issue is it?

This is exactly my problem with scout cars. It removed something beautiful I loved from the first game: The original CoH had some beautiful early game moments, where smart use of flanking would defeat those MG's.

You'll notice a trend in the original vCoH, that is gone from CoH2: The first two tiers gave you basic infantry solutions and support units only. They required, by their very essence, combined arms to use, and they were hardly offensive. Going full firepower in the first two tiers, required significant sacrifices.

In CoH2, it is designed differently. In Tier 2 times, you are already seeing very offensive units, many of them powerful in their own right: Panzergrenadiers, flame HT's, anti tank guns with powerful and accurate barrages, light kangaroos(Scout cars) and powerful AA half tracks.

These units did not come until Tier 3 in vCoH, and that's why some tactics perceived as "dirty" or "rushy" seem to be commonplace.

They are legit tactics as long as they are available, however and this is a vastly different metagame from my point of view. So scout cars are fair game.

They are legit tactics as long as they are available, however and this is a vastly different metagame from my point of view. So scout cars are fair game.

I think they are fair game as well. I'm just afraid of seeing the end meta game involving these things 24/7. I'm mainly disappointed because my early game doesn't feel like vCOH I suppose. I've considered that maybe this is what the devs are going for but I don't feel like it's something that anyone wants. I know for sure I'll probably stop playing and just switch back to vCoh if I cannot get that intense early infantry battle back that I miss. Does anyone like the scout cars and the current meta?

fair game or no its cheeseball and sucks the fun out of the game.

I cant believe after the kangeroo disaster that we get the kangeroo light, but only earlier and by earlier, i mean almost the start of the freaking game.

I agree with combat muffin about the tiers, The first tiers hold so little value now thats its about getting out of them as quick possible rather then actually being a useful part of your army.

I agree that just because its a fair tactic, it doesnt necessarily make the game fun. Take camping in FPS games, for example. When it becomes excessive, it detracts from the fun.

vCoH, with all its glorious things, also suffered from meta issues for a long time. PE, more than any other faction imo. When they first arrived, it was impossible to win against g43 Pgrens with rifles. So stalling tactics were devised. It was monotonous, and you saw this 100% of the time.

Then PE was nerfed, and nobody ever really used them. Then AC's were buffed, and they were buffed well. Americans also struggled A LOT against this, they all tried to sticky them to no avail. Eventually, smart use of cover+bars, or going for that fast M8 fixed the situation.

These were all things the community polished eventually, and became part of the game, so although they ARE cheesy, we haven't been playing for more than 2 months of release. We need to wait some more to see the light at the end of the tunnel.