December Balance Preview

At the start of the community balance patching process it was widely considered that the luchs was the most balanced light vehicle.

Now here we are.

At the start of the community balance patching process it was widely considered that the luchs was the most balanced light vehicle.

Now here we are.

I'd argue thats the t70. Good AI, passable AT, no steamroll timing, decent late game scaling through its utility, good scaling with vet (without becoming oppressive) through its increased scouting abilities.

Invissed three posts for excessive flaming or trolling.

I repeat:

Miragefla:
People we have talked about regarding Luchs -such as Luvnest and Dave who we consider to be good players- their main issue with the Luchs is the fact it arrives too early in the game compared to other light tank/light tank-esque vehicles hence the change.

Me:
They suggested it to have a 85 second build time? I highly doubt that. It is way too excessive. Don't get me wrong, the thing is too potent in the live version. However, the KT build time is 90 seconds, the panzer II luchs now has an almost equal build time.


Miragefla:
Originally I suggested the Mechanized and Luchs both get 15 seconds on their build timer, though people would just plop down the Mech truck sooner.
If anyone has a better suggestion regarding the early Luchs timing, feel free to put it in.

Me:
I do have an idea, however I don't know if it is possible. Give the luchs a 65 seconds build time and, if possible, make it so that it can only be build after a 15-20 second 'cooldown' after the mech truck is setup. This way you will have your 85 second build time, but it will not have a 85 second build time if you want to rebuild it for example.

Again, I don't know if this is possible, but it would delay the obvious problematic timing whilst not punishing anyone trying to rebuild it.

Panzer II 'Luchs'
...
Build time increased from 40 seconds to 85 seconds

Wut, luchs domination? In the world of penal ptrs' and AEC (ofc usf suffers here the most, but getting at least one vet1 rifle squad is more or less enough to negate the 'domination')?

Command Panther
... the call-in mechanic...

Tie all call-ins to tech already and forget about this part of 'balancing'

I'd argue thats the t70. Good AI, passable AT, no steamroll timing, decent late game scaling through its utility, good scaling with vet (without becoming oppressive) through its increased scouting abilities.

These days I'd tend to agree with you. Back in 2015 when Stuarts and T-70s still were very powerful at sniping models. The T-70 has morphed a bit since those days, and it's current performance and cost are a little off, but I find it within reason.

Irrelevant, but way way back when it could crush infantry was a whole other story, too.

They could have made AEC style update for Luchs for free, which takes something like 30 sec.
tbh, even though I admit that I wanted Luchs nurfs, Luchs timing is way over the top and the build time for 2nd Luchs for whatever purpose is not a viable anymore.

People we have talked about regarding Luchs -such as Luvnest and Dave who we consider to be good players- their main issue with the Luchs is the fact it arrives too early in the game compared to other light tank/light tank-esque vehicles hence the change. Originally I suggested the Mechanized and Luchs both get 15 seconds on their build timer, though people would just plop down the Mech truck sooner.

If anyone has a better suggestion regarding the early Luchs timing, feel free to put it in.

Did you ask these players about the live patch luchs or the dbp luchs. I know dave has played on the balance patch, so it depends on when you asked him i guess (before or after he played on it). When these players say they have issues with the luchs, I could easily see them meaning "i have issues with the luchs because of its timing when you consider all the power okw has surrounding the luchs." Another way to possibly rephrase it in case the previous way wasnt clear: "I think the luchs early timing is a problem because it allows massive early leads that okw can ride on then use to crush with later because they have an extremely strong late game." The thing is, volks flame nades were nerfed (less power already around the time you have your luchs power spike). Maybe the luchs early timing was an issue because it was paired with undodgable flame nades. Also, vet 4 and 5 were nerfed, so their late game isnt as strong and the leads become more necessary/justifiable.

Beyond this, the luchs already WAS nerfed. Sturmpioneer repair speed was nearly halved this patch. I think the reason why a lot of people seem to not think of AT guns and handheld AT as counters is because they only do damage and cant force kills onto luchs. Your AT gun takes it down to 80 hp, then 20 seconds later its repaired and killing stuff again. Thats why they only consider stuff thay can kill it and stop the repair cycle as counters. The thing is, with sturmpioneer repair speeds down, damage on the luchs actually sticks and actually takes it out of the battle for a meaningful amount of time. Things that used to hardly slow down the luchs impact on the map can now greatly minimize its effects. Killing the luchs with a light vehicle isnt as necessary now when you can actually remove it from the field for a meaningful amount of time with at guns. These are the thing sthe luchs is facing with its early timing, and they now do more against the luchs.

Its also possible they want it to have similar effective timings to other lights tanks because light tanks are the only viable way of shutting down the luchs in the live patch. In the dbp though, soviets have better early game map control against okw because you can go cons instead of wiaitng your first 2 minutes in a game for penals. Thats a better t70/su76 timing already. Add to that you had to have a t70 against the luchs because there were no other great options against them. But now there are viable con sprint AT nades, and viable AT guns (because cons and t2 were made viable). With volks anti infantry capabilities going down because of vet being nerfed and flame nades being nerfed, zooking up more stuff is also more viable because you dont need as much anti infantry power to win against volks.

Has the early timing of the luchs not already been effectively solved without the build time nerfs?

Also reiterating what a lot of people already have said: the build time nerfs are pretty unelegant.

Luchs change is the one answer you need to show if someone asks you if Relic is a good developer or not.

It is simply ridiculous. Not because I think it is UP now or something like that but that balancing once a year is not possible with these awful changes.

The game is four years old. And still they change the building time more than 100% in one single patch. Instead of slowly adapting the build time by let's say 5-10 seconds, check if this is okay and adapt it if necessary in upcoming small patches, they just again (as always) take the biscuit and make groundbreaking changes without anyone asking for them.

They will just break things again. If they want to change a stale meta, taking out units of a game or superbuffing others is not the way to go. But Relic will never ever ever learn this.

Luchs change is the one answer you need to show if someone asks you if Relic is a good developer or not.

It is simply ridiculous. Not because I think it is UP now or something like that but that balancing once a year is not possible with these awful changes.

The game is four years old. And still they change the building time more than 100% in one single patch. Instead of slowly adapting the build time by let's say 5-10 seconds, check if this is okay and adapt it if necessary in upcoming small patches, they just again (as always) take the biscuit and make groundbreaking changes without anyone asking for them.

They will just break things again. If they want to change a stale meta, taking out units of a game or superbuffing others is not the way to go. But Relic will never ever ever learn this.

community balance amirite

Luchs change is the one answer you need to show if someone asks you if Relic is a good developer or not.

It is simply ridiculous. Not because I think it is UP now or something like that but that balancing once a year is not possible with these awful changes.

The game is four years old. And still they change the building time more than 100% in one single patch. Instead of slowly adapting the build time by let's say 5-10 seconds, check if this is okay and adapt it if necessary in upcoming small patches, they just again (as always) take the biscuit and make groundbreaking changes without anyone asking for them.

They will just break things again. If they want to change a stale meta, taking out units of a game or superbuffing others is not the way to go. But Relic will never ever ever learn this.

Please stop bitching about relic for EVERYTHING, the balance team is responsible for such changes.

I have seen the luchs come out before 6 minutes on a map like crossroads, this is quite early for a light tank, 1 minute after the m20 scout car can make an appearance from USF.

Crossroads is not a standard map, it has 2 extra resource points so it fucks up timing and balance.

Why should OKW enjoy a time during which they can push everyone back to base because their is no effective counter to Luchs? This is not how COH2 works. If your Luchs isnt effective just because their is a counter on the map then you need to L2P and not blame "balance". OKW has no right to get a "counter-free" window of Luchs early game dominance.

Yet t70, stuart and AEC have just that vs ostheer, seeing as they hardcounter ostheer lights.

Heck, even the HT's from sov and USF can beat the 222, leaving only the atg as a viable counter.

Why is it ok for ostheer and okw to sink 270-320 mp into a pure AT unit in the hopes of stopping lights, but it's somehow "unreasonable" to expect the same from allies?

Patch is great so now stop crying about luch i dont see people crying about rifle smoke

Please someone make a summary with all the changes. From live to DBP 2.0.

Please someone make a summary with all the changes. From live to DBP 2.0.

Great idea

community balance amirite

Please stop bitching about relic for EVERYTHING, the balance team is responsible for such changes.

Okay the changes come from the community that is correct.

But still the fact stands that Relic allows one patch (or less) per year which is stupid imo. Better adjust little things more often than to change a lot of things in one patch that may fuck up everything until the next patch in 2019.

Imagine LoL buffing a champion beyond OPness and then simply leaving him as it is for months. That is a legit reason to uninstall a game.

Why is it ok for ostheer and okw to sink 270-320 mp into a pure AT unit in the hopes of stopping lights, but it's somehow "unreasonable" to expect the same from allies?

Don't you know ? Hypocrisy and double standards rule

Don't you know ? Hipocrisy and double standards rule

Ok fanboy so tell me why its ok when okw is strong on evry stage of game but when someone want buff usf lategame guys like u make angry mob

Yet t70, stuart and AEC have just that vs ostheer, seeing as they hardcounter ostheer lights.

Heck, even the HT's from sov and USF can beat the 222, leaving only the atg as a viable counter.

Why is it ok for ostheer and okw to sink 270-320 mp into a pure AT unit in the hopes of stopping lights, but it's somehow "unreasonable" to expect the same from allies?

Could you explain why it is said that Luchs comes out fast when the required resouces to buld a Luchs, Stuart or AEC are:

	MP	Fuel	Start Fuel	Build Time
Luchs	100+200+265: 565	15+50+60: 125	10	45 s
Stuart	200+270: 470	60+70: 130	15	50 s
AEC	180+100+280: 560	30+15+60: 105	20	45 s

I'm just trying to understand why the Luchs is said to have a insurmountable rush time when it has comparable or higher costs to its counterparts.

The Luchs is killing strategic diversity in the game because it makes certain builds impossible due to its oppressive timing.

Your analysis doesn't exactly hold because...

For Brits:
- You didn't account for the fact that they will absolutely need to research their infantry upgrades ASAP for their Tommies to have a chance in DBP
- The AEC is no wiping machine. The Luchs hardcounters brit infantry (since they can't simply pull fausts out of their asses), and the AEC is almost completely useless vs infantry. Especially OKW infantry.

For USF:
- The stuart is not exactly the same wipe machine it once was. It's mostly irrelevant vs infantry, but it's good at harassing; not wiping
- In any case, the Stuart isn't good at wiping the Luchs; it's mostly good at keeping it at bay
- Now, can you do the same cost analysis for what happens if you go Lieutenant? Because that will show you exactly the magnitude of how oppressive a 6-ish minute Luchs is.

And also why is an AT gun not an acceptable counter? Sure its immobile but consider OKW vs Clown car. Apparently the option of building (blindly) a rak is good enough for OKW, why isn't building a 6 lpr or m51 not good enough for USF or UKF?

That's because Soviet AT gun requires you to build T2; that's mostly OK though (though, the Zis gun is by FAR the slowest firing AT weapon in the game). USF AT gun, however, requires you to build Captain, and getting both Lieutenant and Captain is expensive.

Getting both officers used to work just fine for USF in the live version, due to call-in meta abuse. However, that doesn't work anymore, now that emergency M10's are no longer available.

Finally for UKF a single AT gun does jackshit vs Luchs. The Luchs can simply yolorush it and strafe it (due to lack of AT snares). If you've also played DBP at all, and tried to play UKF in DBP you would also notice that you aren't having such an easy time floating the MP needed to get 2 AT guns. That's because you really need to buy those infantry upgrades ASAP, and Tommies will bleed you like crazy until then.

This is only acceptable, if it is acceptable for Luchs to kill strategic diversity, just like pre-nerf T-70, AEC and Stuart were killing strategic diversity.

So 85 second build time for clown car and other light vehicles?

Clown cars can be soft-countered by small arms fire. Luchs can't. That's because Luchs has 55 armor, and is immune to small arms fire. In fact, Luchs will also chew other light vehicles and spit them out again.

Clown cars also become completely irrelevant the moment snares enter the field. A luchs is relevant during the entire game, due to its damage and range scaling with veterancy.

Clown cars actually have a window of them being useful. Luchs has no time limitations to fight against.

They suggested it to have a 85 second build time? I highly doubt that. It is way too excessive. Don't get me wrong, the thing is too potent in the live version. However, the KT build time is 90 seconds, the panzer II luchs now has an almost equal build time.

The game is four years old. And still they change the building time more than 100% in one single patch. Instead of slowly adapting the build time by let's say 5-10 seconds, check if this is okay and adapt it if necessary in upcoming small patches, they just again (as always) take the biscuit and make groundbreaking changes without anyone asking for them.

Luchs build time is irrelevant. That's because for every single unit you build out of T2, you need to spend a big amount of fuel.

Thus, even if your Luchs is taking longer to build, it doesn't prevent you from buying anything else in the game. Your MGs are at T0. Your paks are at T0. Everything you would ever conceivably want to queue while your Luchs is building is on another tier.

The inflation in the arrival time isn't that dramatic either way.
- Luchs can come around minute 6.
- With the changes, Luchs can now come around minute 6:45

This is not a 100% increase on arrival time. A 100% increase in Luchs delay would make it come at minute 12:00. This is obviously not the case.

Thus, please help me understand the reasoning behind your complaints.

For the same reason why volks don't get a t0 Faust, because there has to be a window of opportunity where clown cars must be effective, otherwise what's the point of a unit? Same is true for ostwinds and centaurs (in theory) are cheaper than p4s and Cromwells, there has to be some sort of reason why to build them when their counters (which are also generalist ai/at units) are soon arriving.

Back on topic, and that's even assuming that in live there is a huge window where the luchs is available and the Stuart and AEC arnt. I just don't see how a luchs which takes 115 fuel to get out (accounting for starting fuel) where as an AEC takes 75! I may be wearing some damn tinted glasses but how OKWs supposed "unbeatable" early game can get them 45 more fuel in under six minutes?

And that's assuming that AT guns and bazzoka blobs arnt a good deterant too.

As I said above such a drastic build time increase is unnecessary in my opinion and even if we disregard that due to my blatant fanboism, such a change is a poor solution to the problem, especially when allies are getting new early game buffs. A much better solution would be to increase its mp cost by 20 - 40, this does make it slower to come out but can be mitigated by good early gameplay or to give kubels a small 5 fuel cost.

OKW Volksgrens have no T0 faust because OKW has a cheap T0 AT-gun. They also have mines so saying that OKW cant counter clown cars is a bit weird.

AEC comes out faster than Luchs if everything else is equal. I never said Luchs comes out faster than AEC.

Centaurs and Ostwinds are effective at any stage of the game. They aren´t limited to some imaginary early mid-game window.

I think something almost anyone will agree on is that Luchs needs to be reworked in some way because playing against Luchs rush in every single 1on1 and most 2v2s is super annoying and boring.