December Balance Preview

Go back a bit. Triggering the charge still starts a count down and demos will still outright kill most buildings, especially EF ones.

On T-34s, they're still the cheapest tanks in the game that can engage most targets, particularly infantry with its gun and MGs. What do you want for a 300/90 package? There are other vehicles if you want specialist counters.

LOL, so completely useless now...

I meant the units inside the house.

on the t34 note, they could atleast now have lower requirements for vet. they already miss like crazy and you can't rely on vetting against infantry. T34s are suicide tanks, even their main ability is literally suicidal.

Go back a bit. Triggering the charge still starts a count down and demos will still outright kill most buildings -and when they die so does everyone inside- especially EF ones.

On T-34s, they're still the cheapest tanks in the game that can engage most targets, particularly infantry with its gun and MGs. What do you want for a 300/90 package? There are other vehicles if you want specialist counters.

I dont mind a price increase with t34s but comparing their vet to p4s, its not to great. I think this could be substituted with improving ram which is currently one of the worst abilities in the game.

Edit: once earning vet for a t34, the incentive to ram is lost as it wields the same results as a non-vet one, keeping it alive is difficult enough and you don't won't to loose something with better combat effectiveness. Same goes for the t34/85 which you would not consider it at all.

Demo changes are a buff.

39% muni reduction >>>>> 3s timer.

I really consider anyone that thinks the demo 'nerf' is a 'nerf' is wildly inaccurate and needs to think through or playtest changes more.

It's a buff in my opinion, it's a 39% cost reduction (90 -> 65) to one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

• Top level players can still put them on the side of maps on strat points, and wait a few seconds before clicking it, no one will see the timer.
  
  
• put them on buildings (near doors ways), and 3 seconds won't mean shit
  
  
• put them on retreat paths and just time the three seconds out.
  
  
• put them where support weapons are likely to set up, and that's one dead support weapon.
  
  

39% reduction is way too cheap for demos 65 muni for something of that power is crazy to me.

If you can't play around a 3 second timer, i.e. your mental faculties aren't powerful enough to still use demos, you have to question what you're doing playing a strategy game.

The balance modders are suggesting a change here that I absolutely promise you will buff top level 1v1 Soviets.

OK so I don't like just being negative, here is a suggested change:

Nerf 1: demos have to be teched in HQ for 30 fuel 100 manpower. 60s build time. (Same as CoH1)

Nerf 2: Make them visible! Why should demos have a cloak of invisibility, they're not mines. - This will force players to place them cleverly, and make the onus on trying to spot them for the enemy players.

(Think about it, players will place them on the north side of tank husks and garrisons, and behind trees etc, it will add a new layer to the game.)

I think this would be preferable to a 3s timer overall, and with that nerf I think it would make them more interesting.

I'm fine with:

Nerf 1: demos have to be teched in HQ for 30 fuel 100 manpower. 60s build time. (Same as CoH1)

But then i want the live version demos back.

30 fuel is alot in earlygame.

And for axis player means that: You just can spam inf and flamer, no need for minesweeper or extra mirco on cappoints in earlygame. ( because i think you need the fuel vs Luchrushes for example)

In teamgames the demos were useless sadly(Played yesterday 4vs4 custom games). Because there you are not capping on a whole map. So you see always the timer.

OK so I don't like just being negative, here is a suggested change:

Nerf 1: demos have to be teched in HQ for 30 fuel 100 manpower. 60s build time. (Same as CoH1)

Nerf 2: Make them visible! Why should demos have a cloak of invisibility, they're not mines. - This will force players to place them cleverly, and make the onus on trying to spot them for the enemy players.

I like both solutions. I'd also suggest these other alternatives:
1) Completely remove demos and just replace them with s-mines
2) Have demos kill all but one entity in a squad within its blast radius (potentially increase the radius): The demo starts being more cost effective the more squads are within the blast radius and it stops wiping squads outright. For a single squad it would just be a really, really expensive mine without the suppression.
3) Have it deal 70 (or a more appropriate amount of) damage within a larger radius to punish blobs and reduce the cost.

I like both solutions. I'd also suggest these other alternatives:
2) have demos kill all but one entity in a squad within its blast radius (potentially increase the radius): the demo starts being more cost effective the more squads are within the blast radius and it stops wiping squads outright, for one squad it would just be a really, really expensive mine

I've always liked that solution, but would prefer a cost reduction if that's the case. I never liked GG's mass pin nerf, but a designated survivor limit of 1 would be cool.

That said I think my visibile demos idea would be a really interesting dynamic to the game.

Demo changes are a buff.

39% muni reduction >>>>> 3s timer.

I really consider anyone that thinks the demo 'nerf' is a 'nerf' is wildly inaccurate and needs to think through or playtest changes more.

It's a buff in my opinion, it's a 39% cost reduction (90 -> 65) to one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

• Top level players can still put them on the side of maps on strat points, and wait a few seconds before clicking it, no one will see the timer.
  
  
• put them on buildings (near doors ways), and 3 seconds won't mean shit
  
  
• put them on retreat paths and just time the three seconds out.
  
  
• put them where support weapons are likely to set up, and that's one dead support weapon.
  
  

39% reduction is way too cheap for demos 65 muni for something of that power is crazy to me.

If you can't play around a 3 second timer, i.e. your mental faculties aren't powerful enough to still use demos, you have to question what you're doing playing a strategy game.

The balance modders are suggesting a change here that I absolutely promise you will buff top level 1v1 Soviets.

Is this serious or one giant wall of irony? Cos I really cant tell.

If serious then --> LOL WTF????

Is this serious or one giant wall of irony? Cos I really cant tell.

If serious then --> LOL WTF????

It's serious, completely serious, give top level 1v1 players 65 muni demos even with a 3s timer and watch the world burn.

It's serious, completely serious, give top level 1v1 players 65 muni demos even with a 3s timer and watch the world burn.

Why? Because they cant dodge 3s timers? Since their micro is so bad?

Anyways...Apart from the fact that you are totally and utterly wrong about your idea of "buffed demos", you should also realize that 99% of games in COH2 are not top-level 1on1 but team games and "normal" 1on1s. If we balance the game around top-level 1on1 (which has a playerbase of what? 10-20 players?) the balance for 99% of the playerbase is going to become terrible and thus the game will die.

Why? Because they cant dodge 3s timers? Since their micro is so bad?

Anyways...Apart from the fact that you are totally and utterly wrong about your idea of "buffed demos", you should also realize that 99% of games in COH2 are not top-level 1on1 but team games and "normal" 1on1s. If we balance the game around top-level 1on1 (which has a playerbase of what? 10-20 players?) the balance for 99% of the playerbase is going to become terrible and thus the game will die.

As usual your powers of reading people's points and understanding the points they've made are very poor, so I am not continuing to talk to you.

As usual your powers of reading people's points and understanding the points they've made are very poor, so I am not continuing to talk to you.

I understand your points but they are so biased/wrong that I dont even want to put any effort into explaining you why you are wrong. I am sure someone is going to explain you why you are wrong pretty soon.

• Top level players can still put them on the side of maps on strat points, and wait a few seconds before clicking it, no one will see the timer.
  
  
• put them on buildings (near doors ways), and 3 seconds won't mean shit
  

Activating the demo makes it visible, and there's a "Grenade" warning. Somehow people don't get completely wrecked by 1s commando gammon bombs. If the timer is too short, we'll increase it.

• put them on retreat paths and just time the three seconds out.
  
  
• put them where support weapons are likely to set up, and that's one dead support weapon.
  

That's fair game. It's a lot more difficult to predict this than "set demo at victory point"

Activating the demo makes it visible, and there's a "Grenade" warning. Somehow people don't get completely wrecked by 1s commando gammon bombs. If the timer is too short, we'll increase it.




That's fair game. It's a lot more difficult to predict this than "set demo at victory point"

Thank you for the response, eager to see it in live action with good players.

I hope I'm wrong, a further 1s increase would be a good course of action probably you're right.

Thank you for the response, eager to see it in live action with good players.

I hope I'm wrong, a further 1s increase would be a good course of action probably you're right.

4 seconds are too much IMO, even a dead horse can move away from it that way.

Demos should create chaos one way or another, at least forcing a squad to retreat sounds fair to me.

After all you can still sweep them

4 seconds are too much IMO, even a dead horse can move away from it that way.

Demos should create chaos one way or another, at least forcing a squad to retreat sounds fair to me.

After all you can still sweep them

I agree that they should create chaos, that's why I'd be eager to see another way of approaching demos.

What do people think about demos being visible, and you have to be cunning about where to place them?

It's serious, completely serious, give top level 1v1 players 65 muni demos even with a 3s timer and watch the world burn.

The problem with demo changes is not that they are nerfed or buffed. The problem with demos is that this change completely flips upside down what they are supposed to be used for - at least on paper, the consensus seems they are there as blobbing deterrent.

This change will completely remove the blobbing deterrent part while on the other hand they will still be used to wipe capping squads even at top level play and for much lower cost, as you correctly state.

So no, people are not complaining that it is a nerf. For a change that supposedly aims to fix one-click-wiping unsupervised capping veteran squads, this change actually "fixes" i.e. removes all other potential uses of the ability while simultaneously doing absolutely nothing to solve the one-click-wiping of unsuperwised squads and in fact pigeonholing the ability into being used in exactly this way.

Sure there are more things you can do now against stationary structures. If you have 200 ammo you can place 3 charges in place of 2. Some cheeky smoke play vs the Schwerer comes to mind.

Ultimately I am not an authority on what demolition charges are meant to do, so I can't say that the modding team has it right or not. I am personally glad that at least some change has been made. Anything is better than what we have in place currently.

Actually back in the day I proposed a delayed detonation after you click, let's say 3 seconds, but the timer is invisible to the enemy. The price would remain unchanged. That still doesn't solve the lone capper problem but it would allow blob punishment. And unlike the current change, noone can call it a buff - it would be a straight up nerf.

The problem with demo changes is not that they are nerfed or buffed. The problem with demos is that this change completely flips upside down what they are supposed to be used for - at least on paper, the consensus seems they are there as blobbing deterrent.

Demos are not blobbing deterrent. They are blobbing incentiviser. Why? You only have one sweeper, so move the entire blob around your sweeper. Problem solved.

I guess you now have to be clever with demos. Plant them on the retreat paths; plant them on garrisons or try to smoke them before you activate them.

Sure there are more things you can do now against stationary structures. If you have 200 ammo you can place 3 charges in place of 2. Some cheeky smoke play vs the Schwerer comes to mind.

Bingo. Demos were always supposed to be anti-structure abilities. The enormous cost make that task prohibitive. Along the way it was discovered that demos were even better at wiping squads and that turned out to be a 'fun' mechanic; at least for the player that's using them.

Speaking for myself, leave them as they are right now.

3 second fuse allows axis player to react fast enough or he can buy a sweeper if he cant spend attention.

For 65 munition allies are happy too as they can afford them more.

I think this is golden standard what we have now. Bigger fuse would make them very hard to use and thus weak.