Faction Fuel Balancing

Hey Ladies, Gentlemen and other human beeings,

I have make a pretty confusing discovery, at least in my universe, and I want to chare it with you since I often do some mistakes and other opinions and knowledge is always most welcome. I have searched the forum, if this topic has come up so far, but I couldn't find it. Since this is my first output of this kind, please be forgiving if I oversaw something like this.

I tend to play SU most of the time, and I always wonder why the axis are getting their Meta-Light-Vehicles (like the 222 or Luchs) out much faster then I do.
Then I checked the fuel-requirements for teching and the vehicle-costs, and I cant make sense out of it. Let me show you my math:

Just for intersubjectivity-reasons: I used the stats from "http://www.stat.coh2.hu/";

Ostheer:
Tier 1: 80 MP/10 Fuel

Progressing into Battlephase 1: 100 MP/ 40 Fuel
Building the Leichte Mechanized Kompaine (T2): 200 MP/20 Fuel
- 251: 200 MP/30 Fuel
- 222: 250 MP/30 Fuel

Progressing into Battlephase 2: 100 MP/ 45 Fuel
Building the Support Armor Korps (T3): 240 MP/ 60 Fuel
- StuG: 280 MP/ 90 Fuel
- Ostwind: 280 MP/ 100 Fuel
- Pz. 4: 350 MP/ 125 Fuel

OKW:
Halftrack: 100 MP/ 15 Fuel
T1: 200 MP/ 25 Fuel
- Flak-Half-Track: 270 MP/ 55 Fuel

T2: 200 MP/ 50 Fuel
- Luchs: 265 MP/ 60 Fuel
- Puma: 320 MP/ 70 Fuel
- Stuka z. F.: 390 MP/ 100 Fuel

T3: 200 MP/ 120 Fuel
- Pz. 4: 360 MP/ 150 Fuel
- Jagdpz.: 400 MP/ 135 Fuel
- Panther: 490 MP/ 200 Fuel

Soviet/SU:
T1: 160 MP/ 10 Fuel

T2: 160 MP/ 20 Fuel

T3: 240 MP/ 85 Fuel:
- T-70: 260 MP/ 70 Fuel
- SU-76M: 280 MP/ 75 Fuel

T4: 240 MP/ 90 Fuel
- T34/76: 300 MP/ 80 Fuel
- SU-85: 350 MP/ 130 Fuel
Doctrinal:
- T34/85: 380 MP/ 130 Fuel

- KV1: 420 MP/ 145 Fuel

My Point is the following:
The typical Ostheer-Meta dictates to go for a 222 as fast as possible. They need 10 Fuel for their T1 (lets be honest: MGs and Pioneers only is kinda static and risky), 40 for progressing (aka. escalating) and 20 more for the Building. If you go directly for the 222, you need to spend 100 Fuel, until you have a pretty deadly MP-draining killing machine.

The typical OKW-Meta goes for a fast Luchs. You need to spend 15 Fuel for the Halftrack, 50 Fuel for T2 and another 60 Fuel. In sum that is 125 Fuel until you get an even more deadly MP-bleeding Luchs.

The Soviet-Meta has multiple ways, which of course is an option for the other two factions as well, but usually you go with penals over a T-70 to T-34/76.
This includes 10 Fuel for T1, 85 Fuel for T2 and then another 70 Fuel for the T-70. This summs up to 165 Fuel until you have a evenly-good MP-Mid-Game-Bleeder.

Just to make it clear: If two equivalent players can hold the same amount of territory (of course with some minor fluctuations) for the same time, the Soviet player will have to spend 65 Fuel more for a Vehicle, that is maybe a little bit better, but has to wait much longer to get it. During that time, he needs to rely on PTRS-Penals (which don't progress well into the late-game) or call in AT-Guns (Who will seriously go for the 45mm-AT-Gun... well, yeah me, but I wouldnt consider me a role model in this game...) or T2, which then again will delay his/her teching.
Skipping that to go directly for T4 and T-34/76 is kind of risky, leaving you very vulnerable during the mid-game or forcing you to go for T2. But it will require 265 Fuel. That looks like the best bet, for the Ostheer-player needs 330 Fuel (if he/she was going for a 222) to get the Pz. 4 out. Or 300, when leaving the 222 aside.

So, I hope you can understand my disconcertment here. It feels like a little bit unbalanced and forcing me as a Soviet-Player to go for T2, which doesnt really synergize with the often proclaimed "Mobility-Focus" of the SU.

Again, I don't want to sound like beeing the one with the sad face (I enjoy this game a lot and I'm winning games . I just can't make balacing-sense out of it.

I sincerly hope for some feedback and thoughts on this issue.
Thank you very much

The typical Ostheer-Meta dictates to go for a 222 as fast as possible. They need 10 Fuel for their T1 (lets be honest: MGs and Pioneers only is kinda static and risky), 40 for progressing (aka. escalating) and 20 more for the Building. If you go directly for the 222, you need to spend 100 Fuel, until you have a pretty deadly MP-draining killing machine.

222 is scout it take damage from small arm fire and it does not no that much damage to infantry especially in cover

T70 is light tank it does not take damage from small arm fire, it gun is really deadly.

In addition each faction start with different resources which you should subtract:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243700/a-guide-to-faction-tech#latest

Sounds like you have never used 222 =)

Also OKW goes for fast luchs but SOV tech both tier 1 and 2 ? Please.

222 is scout it take damage from small arm fire and it does not no that much damage to infantry especially in cover

T70 is light tank it does not take damage from small arm fire, it gun is really deadly.

In addition each faction start with different resources which you should subtract:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/243700/a-guide-to-faction-tech#latest

Thank you for your reply and the link. I honestly didn't know, there are different start-ressources...

Concerning the damage of the 222: Although it might not do as much damage as the Luchs with its 20mm, it still feels pretty hard on my penals. And although I must agree on the damage it takes from small arms fire, it takes some time before it would be destroyed by that. So the only valid options there are mines, lucky sticky satchels (if you're against a decent player, that almost never happends) and... the Zis. Which brings me back to that feeling, beeing forced into T2.

Sounds like you have never used 222 =)

Also OKW goes for fast luchs but SOV tech both tier 1 and 2 ? Please.

Ah, you got me there I never played Ost... that's true. But I often enough played against them... and the 222 is a big MP-Bleeding pain in the ***.

And I see, I couldn't make my point clear: I feel like beeing forced to go T2, but of course noone does. But in a even-out match, there is a period of time (which feels like forever), where you are getting hunted by that thing.

i play soviets alot to.

i agree with you on the luchs part, it come out very soon and can hurt a soviet player alot. and okw got a very good early map control, it can be very hard to deny their fuel, against a good player.

Personnaly i always have an at partisan commander and will use it in a bad situations if the map allow it.

i use some defensive mines to. and i pray for the 3-4 mins that i will have no hard counter.

on the 222 part tho, well u can use mines like u said, one ptrs update on penals, dshka, or just regroup all your forces and hold your fuel till the t70 come out.

Thank you for your reply and the link. I honestly didn't know, there are different start-ressources...

Concerning the damage of the 222: Although it might not do as much damage as the Luchs with its 20mm, it still feels pretty hard on my penals. And although I must agree on the damage it takes from small arms fire, it takes some time before it would be destroyed by that. So the only valid options there are mines, lucky sticky satchels (if you're against a decent player, that almost never happends) and... the Zis. Which brings me back to that feeling, beeing forced into T2.

You are by NO means forced to play T2. If you're trying to reach the T70 light tank, there are two routes:

T1 - T3
T2 - T3 - playing with cons or maxims, with access to ZIS AT-Gun and conscript AT nades so 222 is no problem

As for playing T1 opening, there are too MANY options to deal with the 222:

• DSHK machine gun (has AP rounds)
  
• Penal squad PTRS rifle
  
• Guards with PTRS rifle
  
• Tech to T2 to get ZIS
  
• Get 1-2 cons and get AT nades
  
• Go a doctrine with Partisan Tank Hunters
  
• Lay lots of mines to deter aggressive 222 play
  
• Make good use of houses and heavy cover to stall the 222 (especially with your PTRS squads)
  
  

T70 is better than 222 so of course it comes later. But thinking you are "forced" to go T2, or that you HAVE to play T1 is where you're wrong. Soviets have so many options and I think you should explore them.

Ah, you got me there I never played Ost... that's true. But I often enough played against them... and the 222 is a big MP-Bleeding pain in the ***.

And I see, I couldn't make my point clear: I feel like beeing forced to go T2, but of course noone does. But in a even-out match, there is a period of time (which feels like forever), where you are getting hunted by that thing.

There are 100000 ways to deal with lights without tier 2, like guards or m42.
Additionally 222 is weak against small arms fire, and 3 cons with at grenade will kill it

If you don't but tier 2 t70 will come in time to counter luchs.

There are 100000 ways to deal with lights without tier 2, like guards or m42.
Additionally 222 is weak against small arms fire, and 3 cons with at grenade will kill it

If you don't but tier 2 t70 will come in time to counter luchs.

Depends of course (the math was already done in this thread anyway). If you're stomping, which is unlikely considering OKWs early strength, you can get out your t70 at the same time. If you're even, though, the luchs will have around a 2 minute window before you get your t70 out. I'm of the opinion that penals with ptrs are good enough to hold it off and really worth getting, but the fact remains that the t70 has a noticeably later fuel timing; whether this timing is proper or not is... a much longer discussion.

Depends of course (the math was already done in this thread anyway). If you're stomping, which is unlikely considering OKWs early strength, you can get out your t70 at the same time. If you're even, though, the luchs will have around a 2 minute window before you get your t70 out. I'm of the opinion that penals with ptrs are good enough to hold it off and really worth getting, but the fact remains that the t70 has a noticeably later fuel timing; whether this timing is proper or not is... a much longer discussion.

That is true, but that's the kind of discussion I am aiming at. Since the T3 for the soviets feels way to expensive (compared to the other Light-Vehicle-Buildings of the two axis-factions) with 85 Fuel, I wonder if that is a topic that needs to be taking into account at the next patch.
I'm not talking about a awful lot of cost-reduction, but 30 Fuel sounds fair, since a Fuel-Difference of 40 between the Luchs and T-70 feels definitely too much imho.
But again, that's what I hoped to bring into the community and into discussion and sofar I am very happy about the responses.

I haven't included the other allied factions so far. Does anyone has numbers and experience on them (How much fuel is the AEC? And the Stuart?)?

I can't stress enough being thankfull for all the replys I have seen so far. Thank you again

As for playing T1 opening, there are too MANY options to deal with the 222:

• DSHK machine gun (has AP rounds)
  
• Penal squad PTRS rifle
  
• Guards with PTRS rifle
  
• Tech to T2 to get ZIS
  
• Get 1-2 cons and get AT nades
  
• Go a doctrine with Partisan Tank Hunters
  
• Lay lots of mines to deter aggressive 222 play
  
• Make good use of houses and heavy cover to stall the 222 (especially with your PTRS squads)
  
  

T70 is better than 222 so of course it comes later. But thinking you are "forced" to go T2, or that you HAVE to play T1 is where you're wrong. Soviets have so many options and I think you should explore them.

I agree on parts of your position: There are indeed many ways to play the Soviets and the Cons are a way, I often underconsider, since they feel like a pretty bad choice. Although I often see good players go with them.
But if you consider Cons AT-Nade, thats another 25 Fuel to spend, just for a vehicle, that costs 30 Fuel... don't you think, that's an issue?

The DSHK, Guards and Partisan Tank Hunters are all doctrinal units. I think using a Doctrin to counter a 250 MP and 30 Fuel Light-Vehicle is a little bit too much (although I must agree, many good Doctrins have a Guard-Option and of course, you can use these Doctrins beyond the 222 )
The Penal-PTRS is an T1-Option, but as I pointed out before, they scale very bad into the late-game then. Again, for 30 Fuel-Vehicle and without the real chance of destroying it...

But never the less, I am greatful for your response, since it pointed out some options I did not consider before. Thank you

Soviet industry allow for earlier T70 and it was disastrous. Allot has changed since then but dealing with the T70 is as problematic as dealing with the luch and having it earlier will cause issues especially to the Ostheer.

In the end of the day why should Soviet be allowed to spam only Penal and win? Does that make the game better? If one needs snares one should make conscripts or other units.

One has also to keep in mind that Luch is terrible at dealing with units in cover due to low modifiers so one might have trouble killing the luch but one can reduce the bleed by using cover/garrison.

The funny thing is that intention of the Penal changes was to make them counter light vehicles and the seem allot better at dealing with super heavy...

Finally the fact that in the factional showdown Soviet played Penal and won all the games demonstrates that soviet are OP and they should probably don't need more buffs.

In the end of the day why should Soviet be allowed to spam only Penal and win? Does that make the game better? If one needs snares one should make conscripts or other units.
[...]
Finally the fact that in the factional showdown Soviet played Penal and won all the games demonstrates that soviet are OP and they should probably don't need more buffs.

I would counter-argue, that the Penal-Balance is not the topic of this thread and is discussed in other threads more then enough. Although I kind of understand that issue, I felt that Grens with G43s or LMG or just beeing supported by an MG-42 (which you can build without teching in your T0) are more then capable of dealing against my Penals. And they only cost 250 MP, is that right?

About the Cons, I just stated before, that you need to spend another 25 Fuel to get that Nade. And its not save to say, that you will have a chance of throwing it at the Light Vehicle. So a 25-Fuel-Upgrade for a 30 Fuel Light-Vehicle...

One has also to keep in mind that Luch is terrible at dealing with units in cover due to low modifiers so one might have trouble killing the luch but one can reduce the bleed by using cover/garrison.

Do you have numbers for that, especially compared to the T-70? I thought, they changed that Issue with the last patch.

Thank you for your reply

I would counter-argue, that the Penal-Balance is not the topic of this thread and is discussed in other threads more then enough. Although I kind of understand that issue, I felt that Grens with G43s or LMG or just beeing supported by an MG-42 (which you can build without teching in your T0) are more then capable of dealing against my Penals. And they only cost 250 MP, is that right?

Grenadiers cost 240 but bleed allot more per model.

The job of hmg-42 is to stop infantry but it take combined arm to stop them

About the Cons, I just stated before, that you need to spend another 25 Fuel to get that Nade. And its not save to say, that you will have a chance of throwing it at the Light Vehicle. So a 25-Fuel-Upgrade for a 30 Fuel Light-Vehicle...

Imo conscript should always be built because of their utility. They can build cover, they can lower bleed/and increase stay time via merge. Their snare can be used for all vehicles so it is worth it.

Do you have numbers for that, especially compared to the T-70? I thought, they changed that Issue with the last patch.

Thank you for your reply

Luch
heavy----------0.5 (A)0.25(D)
light----------0.5 1

T-70

heavy----------0.5 (A)0.5 (D)
light----------0.5 1

Keep in mind that Luch work with accuracy while T-70 with AOE thus the accuracy penalty does not really affect T-70 while it does the Luch.


It was intent of patch to make "Luchs" better vs cover/garrison but it still remains average at best.
"Panzer 2 ‘Luchs’

...To do this we are making the main gun of the Luchs ignore suppression modifiers of the target unit. We are also increasing the performance of Luchs when it closes in on enemy squads. With this change, the Luchs will ignore cover of nearby infantry units if driven up within 10m from them, (similar to small-arms fire weapons, i.e. the Point Blank mechanic)"

Closing to 10 units is rather dangerous for the Luchs.

You are welcomed.

You have to understand that there are different kinds of back n forths regarding vehicles rushes/stages which can be heavily determined by who has the map resource advantage.

Working by memory it goes something like this:

1- Kubel-Bren Carrier. BC kills kubels. Get's countered by any of the following vehicles.
2- Dodge-M3A1(SU)
2.5- 60/90muni timing. BC gets upgraded and SU gets flamer clowncar.
3- 222-M20
3.5- FHT/AAHT/Flak HT. Not sure about Greyhound but who use it lol. Same with HT (USF).
4- P2-AEC-M5 AA (SU)
4.5- Puma-Stuart >> T70/Su76 (meaning later).
5- Medium tanks UKF>USF>SU=OH>OKW

Countering the 222 is not as drastic as having to do so against the P2 (which arrives later but faster than others light tanks). If your concern is SU, the points mention by other users are more than enough (Nosliw)
If you go for Penals, take into consideration how much you want to pump out in PTRS cause that is a no returning point. Against a 222, either proper small arm fire and cover play can deal with it. A single Penal squad is more than enough to deter it till you tech. Against a possible FHT, it's more of a mindgame of whether or not the OH is gonna upgrade it.
Against OKW P2, you should be using a variety of tools to deal with it. Don't over-commit or rely on a single type of AT source.

You have to understand that there are different kinds of back n forths regarding vehicles rushes/stages which can be heavily determined by who has the map resource advantage.

That's true, but in my mind I have a balanced-case scenario were both players have averaged the same amount of resource-income. Let's take this as a base for the discussion.

Working by memory it goes something like this:

1- Kubel-Bren Carrier. BC kills kubels. Get's countered by any of the following vehicles.
2- Dodge-M3A1(SU)
2.5- 60/90muni timing. BC gets upgraded and SU gets flamer clowncar.
3- 222-M20
3.5- FHT/AAHT/Flak HT. Not sure about Greyhound but who use it lol. Same with HT (USF).
4- P2-AEC-M5 AA (SU)
4.5- Puma-Stuart >> T70/Su76 (meaning later).
5- Medium tanks UKF>USF>SU=OH>OKW

I guess I understand what you want to communicate there (Time-Slots of vehicles and upgrades), but just to make this argument more intersubjectively verifiable, do you know any source where we/I can check this?
Because these numbers don't mean a lot, if not feeded by some understandable measuring unit (like "In a even-out match, where both participants have a fuel-income of [x], faction [y] will have the Vehicle [z] by the time-point "... sounds utopic, and I don't know where to find such data, but I hope, you know a source )

I'm curious about this source, since I actually don't know that much of CoH2-information-sources.
So thank you for your reply and by the way: Also thank everyone who has posted so far for staying in the radius of non-violent and objective communication.

You have to understand that there are different kinds of back n forths regarding vehicles rushes/stages which can be heavily determined by who has the map resource advantage.

Working by memory it goes something like this:

1- Kubel-Bren Carrier. BC kills kubels. Get's countered by any of the following vehicles.
2- Dodge-M3A1(SU)
2.5- 60/90muni timing. BC gets upgraded and SU gets flamer clowncar.
3- 222-M20
3.5- FHT/AAHT/Flak HT. Not sure about Greyhound but who use it lol. Same with HT (USF).
4- P2-AEC-M5 AA (SU)
4.5- Puma-Stuart >> T70/Su76 (meaning later).
5- Medium tanks UKF>USF>SU=OH>OKW

Great list that provides some level of insight into vehicles timings. I would like to say though that the AEC *can* (not that theres a reason for it to) come out earlier than the p2 - it has a similar fuel timing to the usf AAHT at 3.5. Pumas can come out at a similar time to luchs (10 fuel later, fair enough if you consider that a different tier though), and the stuart basically has the same fuel timing as the luchs as well.

I agree on parts of your position: There are indeed many ways to play the Soviets and the Cons are a way, I often underconsider, since they feel like a pretty bad choice. Although I often see good players go with them.
But if you consider Cons AT-Nade, thats another 25 Fuel to spend, just for a vehicle, that costs 30 Fuel... don't you think, that's an issue?

The DSHK, Guards and Partisan Tank Hunters are all doctrinal units. I think using a Doctrin to counter a 250 MP and 30 Fuel Light-Vehicle is a little bit too much (although I must agree, many good Doctrins have a Guard-Option and of course, you can use these Doctrins beyond the 222 )
The Penal-PTRS is an T1-Option, but as I pointed out before, they scale very bad into the late-game then. Again, for 30 Fuel-Vehicle and without the real chance of destroying it...

Simply said, that is why the meta is the way it is currently. If OKW goes a meta doctrine, and soviet goes penals and lend lease, then theyre on relatively even ground. It's not that soviets lack a counter to light vehicles and need to be buffed, its that they lack options and need their power redistributed (to other doctrines and units). As things are now, penals and lend lease allow a pretty well balanced and even match against okw, the winner generally really is the one that played better. That said, this balance relies on mechanics and units that may or may not be particularly healthy for the game.

As to refocus how this reply applies to the greater discussion: I don't think they need an early t3/t70 timing. I don't think soviets need a buff (read: more power added). They need the power that they do have to be redistributed to things other than dshks, penals, and m4cs.

As to refocus how this reply applies to the greater discussion: I don't think they need an early t3/t70 timing. I don't think soviets need a buff (read: more power added). They need the power that they do have to be redistributed to things other than dshks, penals, and m4cs.

Imo it simply that allot of WFA armies units (and Penals) must be toned down.

That's true, but in my mind I have a balanced-case scenario were both players have averaged the same amount of resource-income. Let's take this as a base for the discussion.



I guess I understand what you want to communicate there (Time-Slots of vehicles and upgrades), but just to make this argument more intersubjectively verifiable, do you know any source where we/I can check this?
Because these numbers don't mean a lot, if not feeded by some understandable measuring unit (like "In a even-out match, where both participants have a fuel-income of [x], faction [y] will have the Vehicle [z] by the time-point "... sounds utopic, and I don't know where to find such data, but I hope, you know a source )

I'm curious about this source, since I actually don't know that much of CoH2-information-sources.
So thank you for your reply and by the way: Also thank everyone who has posted so far for staying in the radius of non-violent and objective communication.

The problem with the Luch is it is simply too good. T-70 and Stuart have been purposely tone down the last patch but the Luch has only been re-positioned to be less of a dive machine. So we end today with a Luch that rape infantry even from far range and is far too durable vs T-70 and Stuart.
T-70 and Stuart are, at maximum, there to deny an area to the Luch but they can't kill it on their own.

And people telling you the Luch cost the same price than Stuart are simply lying to you. They purposely forget to add the ambulance and Zook/BARs unlock price on the bill, even to be fair in term of unlocked option, we could argue that as USF you still can't use grenade while the OKW can, so it is a 25 fuel upgrade to add...

Sturmpio can produce healing crates from T0
OKW truck = 15 fuel, unlock faust
OKW Mechanized regiment = 50 fuel, unlock STG and lavanade
Luch = 60 Fuel
OKW total fuel spent to reach a Luch = 125

USF Ambulance = 10 fuel
USF Rack = 15 fuel
Captain = 60 fuel
Stuart = 70 fuel
Grenade = 25 fuel
USF total fuel spent for the same amount of option to reach the Stuart = 180