Lets talk about Doctrines

That is rather irrelevant, I was simply pointing out that ST can easily still wipe things.

My point remain that these unit are hard to balance as wiping machines and should trade some wiping capability for some utility.

Lol good one. Irrelevant.

He could've used one of those 3 to ram that ST and then proceeded to flank with the other 2.

Lol good one. Irrelevant.

He could've used one of those 3 to ram that ST and then proceeded to flank with the other 2.

He probably should.

That does not change the fact the units like the ST and AVRE are wiping machines by design and thus hard to balance since they will either obliterate things or completely miss and be useless.

And thus redesigning these units with less lethality and more utility will probably make them easier to balance.

Ok, lets talk about something different now, Talore suggested on changing Soviets Crew Repair with something else. There are three doctrines with this ability.

-Soviet Industry
With a vehicle focus I would think Salvage engineers maybe a good idea so they gain more fuel for more tanks

- Armored Assault Tactics
This is another armored based doctrine. I am thinking either conscript repairs or Repair Stations

-Guard Motor Coordination
With the separation of guard Upgrades Conscript PTRS maybe a good combo. Guards with DP 28s could button the vehicle while conscripts with PTRSs could go and hit the vehicle with PTRS fire.


Conscript PTRS
To me this ability is a little on the weak side so I have a couple ideas how it can be improved
-Allow Combat Engineers to upgrade to this
and/or
-to have either 3 PTRS or able to upgrade to a third.



I am still not sure how NKVD or Shock Army should be changed but I have a couple new ideas. I sort of got the idea from these quotes.

Shock army:
Conscripts PPsh->Hit the dirt
ML20->KV-1 or KV-2
Rapid conscription->hit the dirt

The idea of the KV2 is growing on me. The KV2 is a tank meant for siege or offense.

- Rapid conscription that gives pre-nerf Penal flamer squads

I would rather not want to see of Penal Flamers but I remember Penal Oorah maybe incorporate this like the Encirclement's Sprint which may also give Maxims their sprint back, doctrinally anyways.

Shock Army
-0 CP: Elite Oorah. All infantry squads can now Oorah.
-2 CP: Shocks
-2 CP: 120mm mortar
-12 CP: IL 2 Attack
-14 CP: KV2

NKVD
-0 CP: Radio Intercept
-0 CP: Elite Oorah
-2 CP: Hit the Dirt
-3 CP: PTRS upgrade
-6 CP: Fear Propaganda

I wonder how effective is hit the dirt and PTRS upgrade combo is?

I would rather not want to see of Penal Flamers but I remember Penal Oorah maybe incorporate this like the Encirclement's Sprint which may also give Maxims their sprint back, doctrinally anyways.

-0 CP: Elite Oorah. All infantry squads can now Oorah.
-2 CP: Shocks
-2 CP: 120mm mortar
-12 CP: IL 2 Attack
-14 CP: KV2

shock troops with ourah will be broken...So will be Penal with sticky satchel charges.

shock troops with ourah will be broken...So will be Penal with sticky satchel charges.

Their counter part, sprinting Pgrens, Snipers, and other things were not considered op. With shock troops, I could perhaps omit them but when it came to with For Mother Russia what made it op was the additional armor they gained. Conscript with AT grenade pretty much does the same thing a penal with a stick satchel and do not remember it being op before when they and sprint and satchel. Though if it does become problematic, I could set them on the same cooldown?

Their counter part, sprinting Pgrens, Snipers, and other things were not considered op. With shock troops, I could perhaps omit them but when it came to with For Mother Russia what made it op was the additional armor they gained. Conscript with AT grenade pretty much does the same thing a penal with a stick satchel and do not remember it being op before when they and sprint and satchel. Though if it does become problematic, I could set them on the same cooldown?

Specialized only 4 models cqb squad extremely expensive to buy and reinforce /=/ cheap spammable 6 men squad.

Have you ever considered changing roles and prices with cons being 25 mp men with 90 muni stv upgrade and side tech while penals become 6 men cannon fodder and changing stats accordigly both in dps and RA (a 1.2 RA penals could be balanced imho).

Ps: you haven't answered back to my sturmtiger proposal/changes =(

Have you ever considered changing roles and prices with cons being 25 mp men with 90 muni stv upgrade and side tech while penals become 6 men cannon fodder and changing stats accordigly both in dps and RA (a 1.2 RA penals could be balanced imho).

Ps: you haven't answered back to my sturmtiger proposal/changes =(

Sort of yes, but people did not like it. And for your proposal, the damage output would seem less than a then the sustain damage of a Brummbar. Sure some vehicles will not be one shot but the Sturmtiger would still be a gimmicky unit who's ability would now to be suppress rather than fight.

Ok, how about we talk about Ostheer's German Infantry Doctrine, Jaeger Infantry Doctrine, and the Blitzkrieg Doctrine.

Jaeger Infantry
This doctrine to me feels like camouflaging infantry and ambush. However, it has two late game munition sinks in already a heavy munitions based doctrine. Proposel is to change the CAS to a Jaeger Light Infantry, very similar to the OKW. (affected by stormtooper bulletin)

German Infantry
In comparison, Jaeger Infantry is camouflage while German Infantry should be focused on open combat. Here is my possible replacement.

-0 CP: Assault Grenadiers (Assault Pios in my mod)
-0 CP: Sprint
-1 CP: Artillery Officer
-2 CP: Model 24 Stun Grenades
-4 CP: Smoke Bombs (Airstrike)

Idea behind this is an alternate T1. Assault Grens/Pios can fill the role of standard Grens. The Officer can increase their damage, call in smoke, and later coordinate fire for Pwefers. The smoke bombs airstrike will allow a global smoke option so the player is not limited to the Officer. Assault Grens and my Assault Pio are still on the weaker side of thing but the Stun Grenade ability should help them level that out.

Blitzkrieg
Gotta go fast! This is what the doctrine to me sounds like. Historically this meant with Vehicles so this should be focused on fast and aggressive vehicles. This one I am not too sure on how to adjust but here is my idea.

-0 CP: Assault Pios (with the extra model, vehicle repairs would increase)
-0 CP: Panzer 4 F1 (Buildable Short Barrel P4s in T3)
-4 CP: Fast March
-9 CP: Vehicle Breakthrough
-9 CP: Command Panzer 4 (I could make it a Command Panther, there are speech codes for that)

Jaeger Infantry
This doctrine to me feels like camouflaging infantry and ambush. However, it has two late game munition sinks in already a heavy munitions based doctrine. Proposel is to change the CAS to a Jaeger Light Infantry, very similar to the OKW. (affected by stormtooper bulletin)

With the changes to camo the camo is a rather UP ability so I would suggest giving some RA bonuses as well and lowering cost.

The G43/LMG (in your mod) is wierd on the PG so I would suggest that the ability for PG now give 4+1 g43 (around Ranger m1 Garrard level) and allows an extra member (no schrecks).

With the changes to camo the camo is a rather UP ability so I would suggest giving some RA bonuses as well and lowering cost.

The cost is 30 so it is already cheap. The Grenadier variant in my mod gains one G43 to help with damage. Maybe to adjust the camo settings to allow them more movement for the camo? Remember they do have a first strike bonus of x1.5 accuracy bonus for 5 seconds which really does help. I was also thinking of allowing Pioneers and AT guns to upgrade this as well. Maybe mortars too? So if they were going to get flanked they could just hide until they pass.

The G43/LMG (in your mod) is wierd on the PG so I would suggest that the ability for PG now give 4+1 g43 (around Ranger m1 Garrard level) and allows an extra member (no schrecks).

I am assuming you mean carbine and not the garand?

While your idea is interesting, I am a bit hesitant on changing Pgrens. In the live game, Riflemen with two BARs is relatively equal to a Pgren squad, excluding vet. Note I am not saying no because they would still be weaker than Rangers with their target size. Would you like to see this on Stormtroopers in the elite troops doctrine (exclusive to the other upgrades)?

The cost is 30 so it is already cheap. The Grenadier variant in my mod gains one G43 to help with damage. Maybe to adjust the camo settings to allow them more movement for the camo? Remember they do have a first strike bonus of x1.5 accuracy bonus for 5 seconds which really does help. I was also thinking of allowing Pioneers and AT guns to upgrade this as well. Maybe mortars too? So if they were going to get flanked they could just hide until they pass.

It not in live grenadier need a weapon upgrade and camo for 90 for the first strike bonus that enemy can simply go back and wait for 5 sec to wear off. Other stronger units get much better thing fro 90 Mu.

I don't like units that can move with camo personally.

Why not simply return to CoH1's doctrine system? It was flatly superior to CoH2s--far less memorization involved, meaning better potential for interesting mind games. Interesting trade offs for the player (spend now for small bonus or save for bigger later) and best of all the limited number of doctrines made them a hell of a lot easier to balance.

I think we are going about the Soviet Doctrine all wrong. There are simply a lack of unique and powerful abilities. Here is a video of unused doctrinal abilities. I will give a quick summery what it could be in the game.

Soviets start at 2:09


1. Scorched Earth
-Frontline Overwatch ability that drops 120mm mortars on advancing enemies.

2. Hold the Line
-Infantry will gain combat bonuses in friendly territory for a time.

3. No Retreat, no surrender
-too similar to hold the line and too gimmicky.

4. Manpowerblitz
-would promote too much blobing, not a good idea

5. Red Banner t34/85s
I have actually done something with this in the past
-One time call in of two T34/85s
-Skin locked to the Red Banner colors.
-Since it is a one time call in, they could revive a small discount in comparison to building t34/85s

6. Sector Air Cover
would be too similar to the IL2 loiter. (it maybe it because I can not remember the voice line to it.)

7. Machine gun nests
-do I need to explain this one?

8. Fire and Manuver
-time ability
-vehicle increase accuracy and perhaps able to cap?

9. Forward Observation posts
-Either a free standing watch tower (owned)
-Or a alternative Cashe for vision instead of a munition or fuel

10. Green T34/76, Soviet war Machine
I have a unique idea that combines theses voices lines
-Time ability
- up to two/three lost tanks/assault guns will be replaced with Green T34/76s (similar to rapid conscription)

Green T34/76
Max health 400 making it either a 3 shot kill or a 2 shot and snare kill.
increased target size by 2
unable to vet
skin locked to default green skin.
still have access to ramming

11. Evasion tactics
infantry unit may Oorah sprint for 5 seconds (like the Ostheer sprint)

These existing abilities work a bit differently than described. Soviet are not meant to have very powerful off map abilities because they have plenty of MU. UKF have powerful abilities by design.

3. No Retreat, no surrender
-too similar to hold the line and too gimmicky.

Actually this ability make your units unable to retreat and was hard to use.

One could change it in away that becomes more player friendly for instance:

NKV officer gives bonuses (as a timed ability) but units affected can not retreat for the duration + something
Or units that retreat lose 1-2 members on base arrival that can be returned as Strafbats (poor quality troops) a bit simiat to rapid conscription.

6. Sector Air Cover
would be too similar to the IL2 loiter. (it maybe it because I can not remember the voice line to it.)

This brings multiple planes. It probably closer to the OKW one.

Green T34/76
Max health 400 making it either a 3 shot kill or a 2 shot and snare kill.
increased target size by 2
unable to vet
skin locked to default green skin.
still have access to ramming

Green T34/76 are stunned when hit similar to JT


Some of these abilities have actually made it in the game in mission packs.

I always thought Hit the Dirt would've worked pretty well if it simply made the squad immune to being pinned. Not suppression, but being pinned. Especially with the reduced grenade range while suppressed.

The ability to crawl a squad around a building or even towards an MG without being completely disabled I think would've been an interesting mechanic in the early days of EFA.

Some of these abilities have actually made it in the game in mission packs.

I knew some abilities were used somewhere, like Soviet War Machine and Scorched Earth were used in the original the Soviet Campaign. What I would like to do is to bring in new and unique abilities to the doctrines instead of mashing a pool of abilities together like Relic did.

I knew some abilities were used somewhere, like Soviet War Machine and Scorched Earth were used in the original the Soviet Campaign. What I would like to do is to bring in new and unique abilities to the doctrines instead of mashing a pool of abilities together like Relic did.

It good idea but most of the abilities what did not make it into the game where problematic.

Actually there are many soviet/wer abilities that can be found only in one or 2 doctrines (other than the trade mark abilities) that could become more common.

There are even "easy" "new" abilities:

For instance Ostheer could get 4 different types of officer like a artillery officer, a Luftwaffe officer (exist already), a panzer officer and infantry officer each with different abilities.

Or maybe soviet industry allowing to build "green t34" from t3.

Here are some alternative ideas for some various doctrines.

Soviet Industry
Replace Allied Air Drop to Engineer Salvage Kits
Replace Vehicle Crew Repair Training with Soviet War Machine

Soviet war Machine
-120 second time ability
- up to two/three lost tanks/assault guns will be replaced with Green T34/76s (similar to rapid conscription)
-200 munition cost

Green T34/76
-Max health 400 making it either a 3 shot kill or a 2 shot and snare kill.
-increased target size by 2
-unable to vet
-skin locked to default green skin.
-still have access to ramming
(in order of the Green T34 to look different then regular, the regular T34s should have the Hulls extras on.)


NKVD Rifle Disruption Tactics
I know have been talking about this doctrine a lot, in which we all agree it needs reworked. It should be around harassing or Disrupting the opponent. Additionlly having a third doctrine with partisans would make the bulletins more appealing.

-0 CP: Radio Intercept
-2 CP: Hit the Dirt
-2 CP: Partisans (the Disruption unit)
-6 CP: Fear Propaganda
-9? CP: Scorched Earth
60 Second Overwatch action that calls in Mortar Barrages (Incendiary?) in friendly territory

Soviet Shock Army
As stated before, too many overlapping abilities.

-2 CP: Shock Troops
-2 CP: 120mm Mortar
-6 CP: Fire and Manuver
-time ability
-vehicle increase accuracy and perhaps able to cap?
-12 CP: IL-2 Loiter
-14 CP: KV2


The Doctrines Terror Tactics, Anti-Infantry Tactics, and Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics has Three overlapping abilities making them too similar so a small rework should be in order.

Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics
-Shocks
-AT gun Ambush
-Incendiary Artillery Barrage
-KV8
-IS2

Anti-Infantry Tactics
-Shocks
-recon overflight
-fear propganda
-Incendiary Artillery Barrage
-KV8

Terror Tactics
-Shocks
-fear propganda
-Ml-20
-KV8
-IL-2 Bombing Strike

Here is how I would change the doctrines so their would be less overlapping abilites

Anti-Infantry Tactics
2 CP: Machine Gun Nests
-100 Munitions? With a Dshk in the doctrine making this cost munitions would not deplete the manpower for unit call ins
2 CP: Dshk 38 HMG
4 CP: Recon Overflight
7 CP: Incendiary Barrage
8 CP: KV-1

This doctrine would be transformed from a support-ish to a more defensive doctrine. Since this doctrine was in the middle of the other two in likeness, changing it would be Ideal. While the other two do have two same ability and one like ability, this should be fine. Though we can always change Terror Tactic's Shocks into Assault Guards?


Speaking of similar doctrines, Guard Rifle Combined Arms Tactics and Soviet Combined Arms Army. Even half of their name is the same. They two same ability and one like ability in the form of the airstrike. With Guard Rifle, they do have synergies, Guards with long range and Conscripts with PPSHs is close range. So I will focus on the other doctrine.

Soviet Combined Arms Army
-1 CP: Forward Observation Post
An Alternative "Cashe" to be built on a point to provide more vision like an observation post point.
75 munitions
-3 CP: Assault Guards
-5 CP: Anti Tank Gun Ambush Tactics
-8 CP: ML-20
-12 CP: Il-2 Bomb Strike

It good idea but most of the abilities what did not make it into the game where problematic.

Actually there are many soviet/wer abilities that can be found only in one or 2 doctrines (other than the trade mark abilities) that could become more common.

There are even "easy" "new" abilities:

For instance Ostheer could get 4 different types of officer like a artillery officer, a Luftwaffe officer (exist already), a panzer officer and infantry officer each with different abilities.

Or maybe soviet industry allowing to build "green t34" from t3.

Sorry for the late response I was working some possible idea, can be read above.

To me, some of the officers abilities just are either lack luster or a way to increase the number of slot on the commander roster. The Artillery Officer works with on field assets while the Luftwaffe Officer just calls in airstrikes basically adding more abilities to the officer. If they were an improved version of a commander ability while sharing the same cooldown. Then it could be useful... I think I said of good way to rework the Close Air Support Commander and Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine.

Balancing T34s that early maybe hard but possible.

I think I said of good way to rework the Close Air Support Commander and Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine.

Luftwaffe Officer
-Abilities change from Close Air Support Commander and Luftwaffe Supply Doctrine
-Abilities share cooldown with their counterpart
-Doctrinal abilities recon ability replace the officer call in

Officer Variations

-Recon Pass
Improves with veterancy
can be come a loiter

-Supply Drop Zone
Not Tailored to a strategic point

-Anti infantry strafe
one aircraft loiter

-Anti Tank Strafe
one aircraft loiter, will need to be careful on preformace

-Stuka Dive bomb
Strategic bombing? like the commandos doctrine
or to like a bombing loiter like Overwatch

-Incendiary bombing run
Loiter like overwatch


This is just a brief idea, I have to leave soon so I can make replies once I come back.