Some concerns with Panzerfuseliers.

The penetration of puma at range 50 is 80 less than half what su-76 has at range 60.

The chance to penetrate a T-34/76 (cheapest allied medium) is 53%, now if you want to call that "pretty well" that is different story...

On topic P.F need more pop. They are rather good but are doctrinal CP 2, need 90 mu upgrade and their far DPS is about equal to Penals.

One has to start with balancing infantry available before minute 1 one vs the other first and then go to doctrinal units.

Step 1) make then 0 cp but built at hq.
Step 2) nerf their veterancy dps bonuses, not a single one hard but rather measured changes at overall cooldown/accuracy
Step 3) change sturm offizier with another doctrinalability and move offizier in another doctrine.

And this somehow makes those less armored ?
And if the enemy pull those in and i have jadgpanzer 4 ? Drophack ?

WANT TO KNOW THE FUNNIEST PART ? both is2 and pershing are in super meta doctrines, king tiger is even less accessible as it requires a complete teching over a simple cp requirement

You didn't even know armor values.
Uninformed "hurr durr X is better than Y [insert 0 arguments here]" needs to stop.

I'm not saying jadgpanzer should get pen buff, but don't call it better than something WHEN CLEARLY IT ISN'T..

Asking a question is different than not knowing something. An invitation to think is also not an expectation that thought will occur.

Anyway @Vipper, indeed. That actually is pretty good penetration for what a puma can do. Against shermans and t34 they can be extremely effective. They've got the sight and range going for them.

What I've been hinting at is that there is nothing that the allies can field aside from a few doctrinal late game units that can't be penetrated by the stock OKW arsenal.

On topic, pfusis being 2cp is their biggest deterrent IMO. Getting to 2 CPS without compromising field presence can be challenge since kubel can cap but not hold territory.

But the larger the game is the easier it is to mitigate that weakness.

Asking a question is different than not knowing something. An invitation to think is also not an expectation that thought will occur.

Anyway @Vipper, indeed. That actually is pretty good penetration for what a puma can do. Against shermans and t34 they can be extremely effective. They've got the sight and range going for them.

What I've been hinting at is that there is nothing that the allies can field aside from a few doctrinal late game units that can't be penetrated by the stock OKW arsenal.

On topic, pfusis being 2cp is their biggest deterrent IMO. Getting to 2 CPS without compromising field presence can be challenge since kubel can cap but not hold territory.

But the larger the game is the easier it is to mitigate that weakness.

Deflection is deflection, we weren't talking about okw roster, but okw jadgpanzer, you talked like jadgpanzer 4 lack of pen isn't even a downside when it is FACTUALLY wrong.

Your question also implied allies heavy had less armor than okw or ost one, which isn't true either.

Well in team games the vet 5 inf has always been a problem with okw especially after okw got full income. Fusilers pop cap is really low. Also in team games fussilers come with the current op Jagdtiger that basicly stops Allies from being able to use any form of AI Armor or armor at all. the 6 man squad also makes them extremely durable. Also why do axis infantry like fusilers and ostruppen always get a snare??? Allied call in infantry never does with the exception of AT Tommies that makes sense obviously. Point being their isnt even a down fall to calling them in when they still get a snare.

...Also why do axis infantry like fusilers and ostruppen always get a snare??? Allied call in infantry never does with the exception of AT Tommies that makes sense obviously. Point being their isnt even a down fall to calling them in when they still get a snare.

You mean like AT partisan that come with a snare and an AT weapons?

You mean like AT partisan that come with a snare and an AT weapons?

Lol at partysans do not equal falls or pfusies. And even if they did in any way shape or form, they are a dedicated at squad that gets rekt by literally anything in a normal situation (including tanks and vehicles for the most part).

Only thing they have going for them is the cheese factor and maybe camouflage with smart play, but falls have both those things too, and again, are much better.

Well in team games the vet 5 inf has always been a problem with okw especially after okw got full income. Fusilers pop cap is really low. Also in team games fussilers come with the current op Jagdtiger that basicly stops Allies from being able to use any form of AI Armor or armor at all. the 6 man squad also makes them extremely durable. Also why do axis infantry like fusilers and ostruppen always get a snare??? Allied call in infantry never does with the exception of AT Tommies that makes sense obviously. Point being their isnt even a down fall to calling them in when they still get a snare.

Well, originally panzerfusiliers were unique in that they had that snare. If you think about what kinds of units they were supposed to be supporting and fighting at the time, it was a particularly different landscape. (Ostruppen are a bit of a different story in that they are mostly combat ineffective except for absorbing enemy fire, crewing weapons, and that snare.)

When volks lost panzerschrecks they gained panzerfausts and StGs. Man I used to crush volks with t34s and m10s all the time before there was a snare.

130 fuel isn't the same of 135.
How can you guys not understand that jadgpanzer 4 has less pen and counter mediums and tank destroyer but is useless if your opponent get heavy stuff ?
185 pen will hardly penetrate pershing or is2.

A tank destroyer with 220 penetration is designed to counter heavies.

This comparison makes as much sense as grens vs sherman...

a nugget of information you should note is the DPS and range of the IS-2 and pershing in contrast to the KT.. hell even a panther....

although the IS-2 has the armor of the KT it has 13.49(!!!) far DPS and a measly 40 range in contrast to the KT`s 21.55 and 45 range...

the pershing is closer at 18.60 far DPS and 45 range but suffers in terms of armor at 300 armor...

the cheaper panther even compares to these with 16.71 dps 50 range and 320 armor (but of course sacrifices anti infantry capability)

now lets compare the SU-85 and the JP4
28.88 far dps 185 penetration 230 armor 20 rotation rate 5.7 top speed and stealth capabilities(!!) for the JP4
25.48 far dps 230 penetration 160 armor 22 rotation rate and 5.5 top speed for the SU-85

the jagdpanzer 4 with 185 penetration of course isnt going to fare well as an SU-85 with 230 against a KT or a panther... but since the allied heavies either have anemic DPS or weaker armor much of it is compensated... not to mention the fact that the JP4 still maintains the range advantage over the mentioned allied heavies meaning it can still harass the said heavy and drill them with higher DPS (but at lower penetration) than the equivalent SU-85... not to mention its stealth capabilities which are always handy

lastly hard countering allied heavies isnt the JP4s forte with only 185 penetration.. but what it does have is 230 armor and 28.88 far DPS and a romulan cloaking device making it the perfect counter to all allied medium tanks and tank destroyers (except the SU-85 ironically since it can self spot and kite to alleviate the dps trouble)... very much worth the 50 manpower and 5 fuel increase

a nugget of information you should note is the DPS and range of the IS-2 and pershing in contrast to the KT.. hell even a panther....

although the IS-2 has the armor of the KT it has 13.49(!!!) far DPS and a measly 40 range in contrast to the KT`s 21.55 and 45 range...

the pershing is closer at 18.60 far DPS and 45 range but suffers in terms of armor at 300 armor...

the cheaper panther even compares to these with 16.71 dps 50 range and 320 armor (but of course sacrifices anti infantry capability)

now lets compare the SU-85 and the JP4
28.88 far dps 185 penetration 230 armor 20 rotation rate 5.7 top speed and stealth capabilities(!!) for the JP4
25.48 far dps 230 penetration 160 armor 22 rotation rate and 5.5 top speed for the SU-85

the jagdpanzer 4 with 185 penetration of course isnt going to fare well as an SU-85 with 230 against a KT or a panther... but since the allied heavies either have anemic DPS or weaker armor much of it is compensated... not to mention the fact that the JP4 still maintains the range advantage over the mentioned allied heavies meaning it can still harass the said heavy and drill them with higher DPS (but at lower penetration) than the equivalent SU-85... not to mention its stealth capabilities which are always handy

lastly hard countering allied heavies isnt the JP4s forte with only 185 penetration.. but what it does have is 230 armor and 28.88 far DPS and a romulan cloaking device making it the perfect counter to all allied medium tanks and tank destroyers (except the SU-85 ironically since it can self spot and kite to alleviate the dps trouble)... very much worth the 50 manpower and 5 fuel increase

The DPS values you're quoting are super unreliable. Even if they were reliable, they would have little, if any relevancy, once you consider penetration and the fact that some vehicles are more geared towards anti infantry roles. Theres a reason why no one ever quotes those dps values when arguing vehicle balance.

a nugget of information you should note is the DPS and range of the IS-2 and pershing in contrast to the KT.. hell even a panther....

although the IS-2 has the armor of the KT it has 13.49(!!!) far DPS and a measly 40 range in contrast to the KT`s 21.55 and 45 range...

the pershing is closer at 18.60 far DPS and 45 range but suffers in terms of armor at 300 armor...

the cheaper panther even compares to these with 16.71 dps 50 range and 320 armor (but of course sacrifices anti infantry capability)

now lets compare the SU-85 and the JP4
28.88 far dps 185 penetration 230 armor 20 rotation rate 5.7 top speed and stealth capabilities(!!) for the JP4
25.48 far dps 230 penetration 160 armor 22 rotation rate and 5.5 top speed for the SU-85

the jagdpanzer 4 with 185 penetration of course isnt going to fare well as an SU-85 with 230 against a KT or a panther... but since the allied heavies either have anemic DPS or weaker armor much of it is compensated... not to mention the fact that the JP4 still maintains the range advantage over the mentioned allied heavies meaning it can still harass the said heavy and drill them with higher DPS (but at lower penetration) than the equivalent SU-85... not to mention its stealth capabilities which are always handy

lastly hard countering allied heavies isnt the JP4s forte with only 185 penetration.. but what it does have is 230 armor and 28.88 far DPS and a romulan cloaking device making it the perfect counter to all allied medium tanks and tank destroyers (except the SU-85 ironically since it can self spot and kite to alleviate the dps trouble)... very much worth the 50 manpower and 5 fuel increase

Ok that's factored in cost difference but you still NEED to destroy them, sonehow...
A jadgpanzer 4 can't do that.

I think that Volks shouldn't have a snare, but rather a panzerfaust upgrade that gives them access to fausts that won't damage engines. So if you need some quick AT you got some disposable shit ready to use. It would be an interesting mechanic, I think. I would've preferred that to a 2x StG. 44 package. OKW have too many long-range infantry squads. (Pfusiliers, Obers w/ LMG34, JLI --not sure if that really counts, and Fallschirmjaegers which are kind of a silly unit with their FG42 having good dps at every range).

Pfusiliers need a popcap of 8 or 9 and a reinforce increase. If Relic would take the time to do this, maybe they could pull a UKF and get a reduction in reinforce cost at vet 5 or some stupid shit.

I forgot why we're arguing about TDs but ok.

Well in team games the vet 5 inf has always been a problem with okw especially after okw got full income. Fusilers pop cap is really low. Also in team games fussilers come with the current op Jagdtiger that basicly stops Allies from being able to use any form of AI Armor or armor at all. the 6 man squad also makes them extremely durable. Also why do axis infantry like fusilers and ostruppen always get a snare??? Allied call in infantry never does with the exception of AT Tommies that makes sense obviously. Point being their isnt even a down fall to calling them in when they still get a snare.

This is funny.

Alll allied faction have huge Anti tank possibiltys.

brits and USF can equip every sqad with a handheld AT.
penals and cons have a snare (by the way: why have penals such a low cost and huge dmg AT snare??)

I think that Volks shouldn't have a snare, but rather a panzerfaust upgrade that gives them access to fausts that won't damage engines. So if you need some quick AT you got some disposable shit ready to use. It would be an interesting mechanic, I think. I would've preferred that to a 2x StG. 44 package. OKW have too many long-range infantry squads. (Pfusiliers, Obers w/ LMG34, JLI --not sure if that really counts, and Fallschirmjaegers which are kind of a silly unit with their FG42 having good dps at every range).

Pfusiliers need a popcap of 8 or 9 and a reinforce increase. If Relic would take the time to do this, maybe they could pull a UKF and get a reduction in reinforce cost at vet 5 or some stupid shit.

I forgot why we're arguing about TDs but ok.

Lol no they already have the worst, most bugged and least accurate atg to face light vehicles, any valuable at mine.

Fallschirmjaeger are glass cannonn

Lol at partysans do not equal falls or pfusies...

Never made any such claim. If you want to understand what I wrote read the sectioned I quoted and my reply.

a nugget of information you should note is the DPS and range of the IS-2 and pershing in contrast to the KT.. hell even a panther....

although the IS-2 has the armor of the KT it has 13.49(!!!) far DPS and a measly 40 range in contrast to the KT`s 21.55 and 45 range...

1) IS-2 gets a range increase at vet 2 up to 50.
2) KT is facing TDs with range 60 that have a 15 range advantage over it, while IS-2 is facing Stugs and Panthers that have a 10 range advantage over it.
3) As they explained to DPS without factoring in target size and armor means little.

now lets compare the SU-85 and the JP4
28.88 far dps 185 penetration 230 armor 20 rotation rate 5.7 top speed and stealth capabilities(!!) for the JP4
25.48 far dps 230 penetration 160 armor 22 rotation rate and 5.5 top speed for the SU-85

This is an actual comparison of the JP and Su-85

Time to kill
JP vs IS2
JP4 vet0 65.25 - 85.25 vet 3 50.74 - 66.27

Su-85 vs King Tiger
Su-85 SU-85 vet0 62.40 - 79.35 vet 3 36.81 - 50.52

https://www.coh2.org/topic/56469/tank-destroyer-time-to-kill-stats

a nugget of information you should note is the DPS and range of the IS-2 and pershing in contrast to the KT.. hell even a panther....

although the IS-2 has the armor of the KT it has 13.49(!!!) far DPS and a measly 40 range in contrast to the KT`s 21.55 and 45 range...

the pershing is closer at 18.60 far DPS and 45 range but suffers in terms of armor at 300 armor...

the cheaper panther even compares to these with 16.71 dps 50 range and 320 armor (but of course sacrifices anti infantry capability)

Which is fine since the pershing and the IS-U cost much less and get to ignore tech.

now lets compare the SU-85 and the JP4
28.88 far dps 185 penetration 230 armor 20 rotation rate 5.7 top speed and stealth capabilities(!!) for the JP4
25.48 far dps 230 penetration 160 armor 22 rotation rate and 5.5 top speed for the SU-85

the jagdpanzer 4 with 185 penetration of course isnt going to fare well as an SU-85 with 230 against a KT or a panther... but since the allied heavies either have anemic DPS or weaker armor much of it is compensated... not to mention the fact that the JP4 still maintains the range advantage over the mentioned allied heavies meaning it can still harass the said heavy and drill them with higher DPS (but at lower penetration) than the equivalent SU-85... not to mention its stealth capabilities which are always handy

lastly hard countering allied heavies isnt the JP4s forte with only 185 penetration.. but what it does have is 230 armor and 28.88 far DPS and a romulan cloaking device making it the perfect counter to all allied medium tanks and tank destroyers (except the SU-85 ironically since it can self spot and kite to alleviate the dps trouble)... very much worth the 50 manpower and 5 fuel increase

Its much harder to kite allied HTs like the IS-2 due to the higher speed difference too

1) IS-2 gets a range increase at vet 2 up to 50.
2) KT is facing TDs with range 60 that have a 15 range advantage over it, while IS-2 is facing Stugs and Panthers that have a 10 range advantage over it.
3) As they explained to DPS without factoring in target size and armor means little.


This is an actual comparison of the JP and Su-85

Time to kill
JP vs IS2
JP4 vet0 65.25 - 85.25 vet 3 50.74 - 66.27

Su-85 vs King Tiger
Su-85 SU-85 vet0 62.40 - 79.35 vet 3 36.81 - 50.52

https://www.coh2.org/topic/56469/tank-destroyer-time-to-kill-stats

1. true
2. a vet 0 IS-2 facing a Jp4 has a 20 range advantage
3. true but factoring in probability of penetration without the penetration formula would be like drawing numbers on a blackboard without basis.... if one can provide the formula id be happy to derive a mean time to destruction... target size is the same for both tanks at 26

that time to kill though doesnt factor in the fact that the IS-2 has significantly more anemic DPS at 13.88 vs 21.55... which matters quite alot considering both are top tier heavies that cost relatively similar

Which is fine since the pershing and the IS-U cost much less and get to ignore tech.



Its much harder to kite allied HTs like the IS-2 due to the higher speed difference too

not too much... 30 fuel and 80 manpower


true but the anemic DPS of the IS-2 also plays a role in its demise

The DPS values you're quoting are super unreliable. Even if they were reliable, they would have little, if any relevancy, once you consider penetration and the fact that some vehicles are more geared towards anti infantry roles. Theres a reason why no one ever quotes those dps values when arguing vehicle balance.

i took it from this site http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ since manually calculating DPS would take more time than simply getting it off the site... regardless penetration values werent factored in as i lacked the penetration formula in order to generate a mean time to kill system

i took it from this site http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ since manually calculating DPS would take more time than simply getting it off the site... regardless penetration values werent factored in as i lacked the penetration formula in order to generate a mean time to kill system

Penetration formula = penetration/armor = % to pen; values less than 3% are reduced to 0%

i took it from this site http://www.stat.coh2.hu/ since manually calculating DPS would take more time than simply getting it off the site... regardless penetration values werent factored in as i lacked the penetration formula in order to generate a mean time to kill system

Given. However, my point is that those values are so far removed from how those units actually perform/are balanced
/are used that quoting them essentially adds nothing to an argument.

And since you asked, the penetration formula is simply:
Weapon penetration / armor = chance to penetrate

That said, that website only lists the mid range value (i think) for a given weapons penetration, and all weapons have a close, mid, and far range value which complicated the theorycrafting and calculations a decent bit.