P-47 Rocket Strike vs Stuka Close Air Support [VIDEO Proof]

Except dps curve and dps calculations.

Oh yeah and tons of actual gameplay.

Looking at those with unbiased opinion helps too.

More talk, show proof or stop posting.

More talk, show proof or stop posting.

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=riflemen_bar_30_06_light_machine_gun_mp

Bar dps: 5/14.70
Rifles removed: 1 garand
Cost 60

Final squad dps:12.36/45.34
Vet3 RA: 0.97 - 0.97x23/100 - 0.75x15/100= 0.64

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=volksgrenadier_mp44_smg_mp

Stgx2 dps: 1.99/8.27x2= 3.98/16.52
Rifles removed: 2 kar 98k volks
Cost 60

Final squad dps:9.77/31.34
Vet 5 RA: 1 - 10% - 0.9x10/100 = 0.81

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=grenadier_mg42lmg_mp

Lmg42 dps: 7.19/7.66
Rifles removed: 1 kar 98k grens
Cost 60

Final squad dps:14.42/26.32
Vet 3 RA: 0.91 - 0.91x23/100= 0.64

Dat theory crafting again.

Dat theory crafting again.

Yeah sure

Show Spoiler

Those are reference values, they aren't very good for actual in-game combat. How does that prove anything? There is cover, abilities, vet. All in the real game. The reference dps values are an average from one set of calculations, they aren't guaranteed.

The only thing this proves is a higher POTENTIAL for rifles to do well at close range. We all already knew that, but even then there are still other variables that will mess with these reference values. We don't just teleport to close range. Someone has to close in. Whoever closes in is going to suffer a dps drop, completely invalidating the reference values. Then there will be model losses, most likely by the closer. These lab values just don't work when we are discussing real gameplay, unless you adjust the formula for a wide variety of real gameplay scenarios. The best you can do with these reference values is calculate a long range battle, which of course is in the grenadiers favor, followed by volks.

You aren't going to arrive at close range on a volks or grenadier squad with just 60 munitions worth of expense. At best, you would need 15 munitions more to use smoke so models aren't dropped in the approach and your opponent has to be stupid enough to sit there waiting in the smoke to get hit by that 40+ close range dps potential.

Those are reference values, they aren't very good for actual in-game combat. How does that prove anything? There is cover, abilities, vet. All in the real game. The reference dps values are an average from one set of calculations, they aren't guaranteed.

The only thing this proves is a higher POTENTIAL for rifles to do well at close range. We all already knew that, but even then there are still other variables that will mess with these reference values. We don't just teleport to close range. Someone has to close in. Whoever closes in is going to suffer a dps drop, completely invalidating the reference values. Then there will be model losses, most likely by the closer. These lab values just don't work when we are discussing real gameplay, unless you adjust the formula for a wide variety of real gameplay scenarios. The best you can do with these reference values is calculate a long range battle, which of course is in the grenadiers favor, followed by volks.

You aren't going to arrive at close range on a volks or grenadier squad with just 60 munitions worth of expense. At best, you would need 15 munitions more to use smoke so models aren't dropped in the approach and your opponent has to be stupid enough to sit there waiting in the smoke to get hit by that 40+ close range dps potential.

That's first quality bullshit.
The advantages of covers/positioning etc applies to both units in equal conditions in the same way, increasing RA, not dps, because we aren't talking about brits...and RA of rifles is the highest here.
They also have the highest number of models and outdps volks always and grens at anything but extreme long range, where they would trade definetly well due to the number of men in squads

"You aren't going to arrive at close range on a volks or grenadier squad with just 60 munitions worth of expense. At best, you would need 15 munitions more to use smoke so models aren't dropped in the approach and your opponent has to be stupid enough to sit there waiting in the smoke to get hit by that 40+ close range dps potential."

1) mortar gives free smoke
2) closing in against volks is a noob move (expected tho) rifles outdps volks at any range EVER and have less RA at any stage of the game, why would you ever close in ?
3) The only situation in which you MAY WANT to close in is against grens, which costs more anyway and lose any potential up to mid range. They also can't shoot mg, which is a lot of dps lost, on the move, and any mortar/artillery would force them to move, you also got several smoke sources or even flanking to nullify cover advantage.
FFS there are litterally 1000000 alternative ways to head on assaulting green covered enemy...it's called RTS for a reason.

"The only thing this proves is a higher POTENTIAL for rifles"
Here, equally invested muni will result in allies victory if the usf player knows how to use their infantry.
I know potential isn't enough for you and you wanted a "i win every infantry engagement with 0 micro" button..i'm sorry.

Data says 1 bar makes the squad extremely competitive in any situation that isn't floating on red cover or charging to a green covered squad.
The fact that you consider competitive a squad only if it can ignore any cover advantage and straight up charge to the enemy explain why you feel unable to achieve victory without second bar.
I'm indeed shocked that grens and volks CAN win in a defensive situation for which rifles have a specific tool.
It's indeed not competitive right now with only one bar as it requires you to not be afk to not lose an engagement.

i've fought more with grens without lmg's then usf...

That's first quality bullshit.
The advantages of covers/positioning etc applies to both units in equal conditions in the same way, increasing RA, not dps, because we aren't talking about brits...and RA of rifles is the highest here.
They also have the highest number of models and outdps volks always and grens at anything but extreme long range, where they would trade definetly well due to the number of men in squads

"You aren't going to arrive at close range on a volks or grenadier squad with just 60 munitions worth of expense. At best, you would need 15 munitions more to use smoke so models aren't dropped in the approach and your opponent has to be stupid enough to sit there waiting in the smoke to get hit by that 40+ close range dps potential."

1) mortar gives free smoke
2) closing in against volks is a noob move (expected tho) rifles outdps volks at any range EVER and have less RA at any stage of the game, why would you ever close in ?
3) The only situation in which you MAY WANT to close in is against grens, which costs more anyway and lose any potential up to mid range. They also can't shoot mg, which is a lot of dps lost, on the move, and any mortar/artillery would force them to move, you also got several smoke sources or even flanking to nullify cover advantage.
FFS there are litterally 1000000 alternative ways to head on assaulting green covered enemy...it's called RTS for a reason.

"The only thing this proves is a higher POTENTIAL for rifles"
Here, equally invested muni will result in allies victory if the usf player knows how to use their infantry.
I know potential isn't enough for you and you wanted a "i win every infantry engagement with 0 micro" button..i'm sorry.

Data says 1 bar makes the squad extremely competitive in any situation that isn't floating on red cover or charging to a green covered squad.
The fact that you consider competitive a squad only if it can ignore any cover advantage and straight up charge to the enemy explain why you feel unable to achieve victory without second bar.
I'm indeed shocked that grens and volks CAN win in a defensive situation for which rifles have a specific tool.
It's indeed not competitive right now with only one bar as it requires you to not be afk to not lose an engagement.

sorry but equally investment in ammo doens't make allies insta win...

sorry but equally investment in ammo doens't make allies insta win...

I never said that, this is vaz dream.
Equally investment in ammo make allies have upper hand in close to mid range, lose against long range grens, lose in inferior conditions to gren and to volks in specific condition (respectively long and mid range).
There is not a single reason 1 bar is inferior to axis mainline.
Other than prevailing basically at any range angainst volks in equal conditions, it will prevail over expensive grens at any but long range, but in a combat situation in long range rifles won't be even half as disadvantaged as grens are in mid to close, mainly because their dps curve is all around extremely good anyway.

Careless play/being outplayed/forgetting about cover aren't balance arguments.

The point "they need 2 bars to compete" is incredibly wrong, they need 1 bar to win at their intended range and 2 to win at any range.

Those are reference values, they aren't very good for actual in-game combat. How does that prove anything? There is cover, abilities, vet. All in the real game. The reference dps values are an average from one set of calculations, they aren't guaranteed.

Well they are the basis for in game combat. You can just ignore the base dps values of units in this game because the unit with the higher DPS might be caught in red cover every once and awhile.

The best you can do with these reference values is calculate a long range battle, which of course is in the grenadiers favor, followed by volks.

Volks beat RM at long range, lolwat? With no upgrades the best the volks can hope for is a stalemate. If there is cover the Riflemen can easily advance. With upgrades (say STG x 2 vs BAR) The volks loose assuredly at all ranges.

5 pages under an obvious fact

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=riflemen_bar_30_06_light_machine_gun_mp

Bar dps: 5/14.70
Rifles removed: 1 garand
Cost 60

Final squad dps:12.36/45.34
Vet3 RA: 0.97 - 0.97x23/100 - 0.75x15/100= 0.64

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=volksgrenadier_mp44_smg_mp

Stgx2 dps: 1.99/8.27x2= 3.98/16.52
Rifles removed: 2 kar 98k volks
Cost 60

Final squad dps:9.77/31.34
Vet 5 RA: 1 - 10% - 0.9x10/100 = 0.81

http://www.stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=grenadier_mg42lmg_mp

Lmg42 dps: 7.19/7.66
Rifles removed: 1 kar 98k grens
Cost 60

Final squad dps:14.42/26.32
Vet 3 RA: 0.91 - 0.91x23/100= 0.64

Don't use that site for dps calculations, they do it all wrong. You can use it for some things like armor, penetration, basic stats, but DO NOT use their DPS.
You can use this from cruzzi: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
Download the file, open it with your browser.

Fixed your basic stats:
Bar dps: 3.939/13.204

Volks Stg: 1.446/7.52

Gren lmg42: 8.935/6.121

Also remember that those are only for range 35 and 5, without looking at the actual dps curve of the unit you get a flawed perspective.

Does all this have anything to do with the P47 and Stuka? Lets try to get back on the subject of the thread.

Personally I'd like both abilities removed. On the axis side Stuka CAS is "I click, I win" If you're anywhere under topspeed. For USF p47s are unreliable and because their damage output is based on the physical rocket projectile hitting the target, it can be negated by high density building areas and maps such as City 17. Not to mention that the rockets do tend to miss a lot. Overall though I'd at least like to have stuka CAS toned down a bit and definatly remove the ability to stun/critically damage vehicles. P47s I think are more or less fine, just reduce price to 200 like stuka CAS.

That's for the Stuka loiter though ^, I think the Close air support doctrine with the stuka straffe should still cause stuns, but not critical engine damage since it still requires similar time for the loiter to arrive, but hits a fixed area preset on callin.

Personally I'd like both abilities removed. On the axis side Stuka CAS is "I click, I win"

Yeah, nah.
First thing I do when I have enough fuel is invest in AA. I dont see how you can't do the same

Don't use that site for dps calculations, they do it all wrong. You can use it for some things like armor, penetration, basic stats, but DO NOT use their DPS.
You can use this from cruzzi: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
Download the file, open it with your browser.

Fixed your basic stats:
Bar dps: 3.939/13.204

Volks Stg: 1.446/7.52

Gren lmg42: 8.935/6.121

Also remember that those are only for range 35 and 5, without looking at the actual dps curve of the unit you get a flawed perspective.

For some reason it doesn't work on my laptop.

I know those aren't 100% accurate, but i mainly rely on being approximately correct and more importantly corre tly highliting the squad/weapon with superior dps at the specific range.

I will eventually try ti make cruz work as i get to my pc.

Personally I'd like both abilities removed. On the axis side Stuka CAS is "I click, I win" If you're anywhere under topspeed. For USF p47s are unreliable and because their damage output is based on the physical rocket projectile hitting the target, it can be negated by high density building areas and maps such as City 17. Not to mention that the rockets do tend to miss a lot. Overall though I'd at least like to have stuka CAS toned down a bit and definatly remove the ability to stun/critically damage vehicles. P47s I think are more or less fine, just reduce price to 200 like stuka CAS.

That's for the Stuka loiter though ^, I think the Close air support doctrine with the stuka straffe should still cause stuns, but not critical engine damage since it still requires similar time for the loiter to arrive, but hits a fixed area preset on callin.

Finally a good comment among the bianess of this community from both sides.

Personally I'd like both abilities removed. On the axis side Stuka CAS is "I click, I win" If you're anywhere under topspeed. For USF p47s are unreliable and because their damage output is based on the physical rocket projectile hitting the target, it can be negated by high density building areas and maps such as City 17. Not to mention that the rockets do tend to miss a lot. Overall though I'd at least like to have stuka CAS toned down a bit and definatly remove the ability to stun/critically damage vehicles. P47s I think are more or less fine, just reduce price to 200 like stuka CAS.

That's for the Stuka loiter though ^, I think the Close air support doctrine with the stuka straffe should still cause stuns, but not critical engine damage since it still requires similar time for the loiter to arrive, but hits a fixed area preset on callin.

Like @Vipper said multiple times, it should be completely reworked with an intended aa mechanic and a new general concept of off map.

Removing isnt the answer.
I don't want a coh3 where there aren't loiters, but a coh3 where they are balanced.

For some reason it doesn't work on my laptop.

I know those aren't 100% accurate, but i mainly rely on being approximately correct and more importantly corre tly highliting the squad/weapon with superior dps at the specific range.

I will eventually try ti make cruz work as i get to my pc.

Here's another alternative if you want, this is just a google sheet no download required. Also includes vehicle mgs and other cool stuff. The dps calculations are also slightly off here, everything is usually a bit lower dps. But, you can see all the ranges here to get a better idea of the curve.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0

The only units that have changed since this was created are penals and guards, and volks stgs added.

Here's another alternative if you want, this is just a google sheet no download required. Also includes vehicle mgs and other cool stuff. The dps calculations are also slightly off here, everything is usually a bit lower dps. But, you can see all the ranges here to get a better idea of the curve.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0

The only units that have changed since this was created are penals and guards, and volks stgs added.

Nice thx

Yeah that's more accurate, it's basically an error of +-1 per coh 2 stats.hu values, still good because it provides an all range data per each weapon.