Mortars

I put this in balance but I'm more just wanting to have a discussion than actually move towards asking for changes or anything like that.

Theoretically, mortars (and other mortar-y like indirect fire options) are meant to counter static play right? Or at least work in tandem with hmgs to suppress and then shell helpless infantry. So why are most of them (poor soviets) so freaking good at killing lots and lots of mainline infantry just on autofire? I think the worst offenders are of course the mortar pit (the worst the worst) and ostheer mortar, as they are both really accurate with a relatively high rate of fire (or really high for the pit) on autofire, but other options are still very lethal as well.

On top of this, they don't really require a lot of micro to kill stuff unless you're actually using them in their intended role, countering static play and other indirect fire, since most of them (rip usf) have pretty long autofire ranges and will usually be able to shell infantry on the front lines while still being very safe from said infantry.

I just kind of want to hear other people's views on these points, I'm not going on a witch hunt to nerf all indirect fire.

I think that auto fire should be made less lethal as a general rule, make it a support type thing vs a set and forget skirmish changer (or lemon) make barrage great again instead of attack ground. Its got a cooldown, make it worth using over other options

Also what is the supposed role of howitzers like the Pack and the LEig?

IMO those ones should be good at autofire at the penalty of needing to maintain a clear LOS to maintain accuracy.

This again? Sigh... No offense to the OP but this grievance with Mortars is getting old to me.

Mortars are fine as they are. If they are killing Mainline infantry, they are doing their job, which is to support your forces. Something to make your life easier and make your enemy keep moving. Every single faction has the right to that option. If mortars were only useful in barrage mode, that's just adding an unnecessary Micro Tax that certainly only adds to the stress in an intense game. You are paying the cost of a squad to get it so it better be worth it!

As for the Mortar Pit, under FBP, it's fine as far as it's weaponry goes (Decreased Auto-Fire Range). But Cost in a bit too low and at times too hard to hit at the moment.

As for Ostheer, no complaints. It works as intended and certainly is a prime target for my forces. The game would be boring if I had nothing to fear.

I put this in balance but I'm more just wanting to have a discussion than actually move towards asking for changes or anything like that.

Theoretically, mortars (and other mortar-y like indirect fire options) are meant to counter static play right? Or at least work in tandem with hmgs to suppress and then shell helpless infantry. So why are most of them (poor soviets) so freaking good at killing lots and lots of mainline infantry just on autofire? I think the worst offenders are of course the mortar pit (the worst the worst) and ostheer mortar, as they are both really accurate with a relatively high rate of fire (or really high for the pit) on autofire, but other options are still very lethal as well.

On top of this, they don't really require a lot of micro to kill stuff unless you're actually using them in their intended role, countering static play and other indirect fire, since most of them (rip usf) have pretty long autofire ranges and will usually be able to shell infantry on the front lines while still being very safe from said infantry.

I just kind of want to hear other people's views on these points, I'm not going on a witch hunt to nerf all indirect fire.

I pretty much agree, especially anoying is that they work very well against moving targets as well...
Exception is the Soviet one, which is a pure trash

This again?
As for Ostheer, no complaints. It works as intended and certainly is a prime target for my forces. The game would be boring if I had nothing to fear.

Gee... I wonder, which faction does this guy mostly play, oh yeah ost ^^ that figures. "I have my laser guided mortar autofire, dont nerf you noobs it will ruin my gameplay, I always make two mortars because I love to watch them shred the enemy effortlessly"

Really sucks when your squads get wiped by mortars in the early game. It usually means gg. Standing still or in cover is too punishing.

Gee... I wonder, which faction does this guy mostly play, oh yeah ost ^^ that figures. "I have my laser guided mortar autofire, dont nerf you noobs it will ruin my gameplay, I always make two mortars because I love to watch them shred the enemy effortlessly"

Bzzzzt... Wrong. The correct answer as to what I play most is Soviets and British.

If the Ostheer can have powerful indirect fire then so can I. THAT is my logic.

Granted, Soviet Mortars leave something to be desired in their rate of fire but I do get good shots in every once in a while. Not to mention that the Soviet 82mm Mortar isn't the only one they have. There's the 120mm Mortar too. If the 82mm were buffed, what would we have to do to the 120mm to keep it superior? Wouldn't Ostheer Players cry foul? Wouldn't it render Howitzer's obsolete? So much to consider.

Plus I would refrain from calling for nerfs on the Ostheer Mortar. Doing that will backfire and every mortar will be nerfed soon after. Considering the path the game has been going on of making things become standardised, I fear that's exactly what will happen.

Bzzzzt... Wrong. The correct answer as to what I play most is Soviets and British.

If the Ostheer can have powerful indirect fire then so can I. THAT is my logic.

Granted, Soviet Mortars leave something to be desired in their rate of fire but I do get good shots in every once in a while. Not to mention that the Soviet 82mm Mortar isn't the only one they have. There's the 120mm Mortar too. If the 82mm were buffed, what would we have to do to the 120mm to keep it superior? Wouldn't Ostheer Players cry foul? Wouldn't it render Howitzer's obsolete? So much to consider.

Plus I would refrain from calling for nerfs on the Ostheer Mortar. Doing that will backfire and every mortar will be nerfed soon after. Considering the path the game has been going on of making things become standardised, I fear that's exactly what will happen.

Never compare doctrinal units to non doctrinal. Doctrinal units are supposed to be good at what they do. That doesnt mean that non doctrinal units should be terrible to balance it. Ost has mobile mortar ht which is even better than the standard non doc mortar. Mortars autofire for all factions should be less effective to prevent retarded players to rise in ranks. This game should be all about skill cap, not handicap. Brits and axis basically promote retards. Mortars should have solid barrage because it actually needs some micro other than that mortars should be slightly helpful. If something doesnt need micro it should be nerfed.

Indirect fire really has far too great of a presence in this game and in the majority of games adds nothing to the game but to act as an annoyance. Many will say mortars are a pressure multiplier in that it forces the recipient to continually reposition and thus allow an opening for the attacking side. However the reality is it expands the presence of rng, sometimes to the point of swinging the game.

I just had a game on Langres where I lost a 4 man gren squad (albeit quite low health) to a 120 shell while in full retreat. The next shell wiped a pgren squad with 3 men but almost full health, also on the move but doing that bunch shit that they do. Even though I had a significant lead, it was gg because at that point I needed to build medics and reinforce, not respend 580 in manpower to replace squads. Whilst this is not a regular occurrence the presence of indirect fire certainly is.

The point is, indirect fire is an automatic no brainer that not only requires little skill or micro, but counters everything in range and in doing so turns every game into an rng dance of death where cover and unit positioning means little. The entire game descends into a war of rng attrition where the focus is to constantly reposition units so as to not be murdered from above.

mortar emplacement is the queen of the indirect fire immo.

has the lowest cost (2x mortar) and the higheste surviveabilty, the highest range and...guess what? one of the highest squad wiping rate overall. (thanks to the laser guided mortar shells)

I think all mortars and light howitzers should get this easy redesign to fit them into the role they are intended for:

- Less damage vs "mobile" inf, meaning against volks, grens, rifles, sections, etc
- a BIT more damage vs support weapons: AT Guns, MGs, etc
- more damage vs buildings and units inside them

All of that can be done by either changing the stats and/or damage tables.

That's it.
Mortars should counter static gameplay and support troops, not wipe inf left and right.
Light Howitzers like LeIG and PaK howie should deal more damage to buildings than other mortars but less to inf as they have a huge range and are meant to harass OKW buildings and UKF sim cities.

Every other change will bring up way more problems IMO.

I think all mortars and light howitzers should get this easy redesign to fit them into the role they are intended for:

- Less damage vs "mobile" inf, meaning against volks, grens, rifles, sections, etc
- a BIT more damage vs support weapons: AT Guns, MGs, etc
- more damage vs buildings and units inside them

All of that can be done by either changing the stats and/or damage tables.

That's it.
Mortars should counter static gameplay and support troops, not wipe inf left and right.
Light Howitzers like LeIG and PaK howie should deal more damage to buildings than other mortars but less to inf as they have a huge range and are meant to harass OKW buildings and UKF sim cities.

Every other change will bring up way more problems IMO.

+1
That would fix the problem.

I think all mortars and light howitzers should get this easy redesign to fit them into the role they are intended for:

- Less damage vs "mobile" inf, meaning against volks, grens, rifles, sections, etc
- a BIT more damage vs support weapons: AT Guns, MGs, etc
- more damage vs buildings and units inside them

All of that can be done by either changing the stats and/or damage tables.

That's it.
Mortars should counter static gameplay and support troops, not wipe inf left and right.
Light Howitzers like LeIG and PaK howie should deal more damage to buildings than other mortars but less to inf as they have a huge range and are meant to harass OKW buildings and UKF sim cities.

Every other change will bring up way more problems IMO.

Easily done by removing autofire and buffing barrage.
Mobile infantry can get out of barrage quickly, while setup weapons will stay longer under it and eat a few shells.

Mortar is , was and will be the tool of lazy noobs with non existent micro and poor flanking abilities.

The most infuriating aspect is your units come under fire so you move them and they get wiped because units often clump when you move them. Not something that will ever get fixed though.

The other issues is the survivability of mortar / indirect fire units. Flanking has always been the accepted counter yet there are huge discrepancies between factions. A penal squad will IME always kill an ost mortar if flanked but usf mortar will often escaped without loosing a man if flanked by 3 grens.

All indirect fire units should be more vulnerable to any flanking squads and also operate within a more niche role rather than braindead units that just fire continuously.

Easily done by removing autofire and buffing barrage.
Mobile infantry can get out of barrage quickly, while setup weapons will stay longer under it and eat a few shells.

Yes, this might also be a good fix, I think I created a thread about this some months ago :-)

If mortars were only useful in barrage mode, that's just adding an unnecessary Micro Tax that certainly only adds to the stress in an intense game. You are paying the cost of a squad to get it so it better be worth it!

And infantry squads should micro themselves on the field - you have already paid for them, so the additional micro tax is unacceptable! Less taxes! More freedom for the market! Sad! @TheRealDonaldTrump

And infantry squads should micro themselves on the field - you have already paid for them, so the additional micro tax is unacceptable! Less taxes! More freedom for the market! Sad! @TheRealDonaldTrump

I want a LeFH that barrages the enemy base sector 24/7 without a single click.
Even better: As soon as I have chosen a commander with the LeFH and have 600 spare MP, my Pios will automatically start building it.
The dream.

Less micro tax : A-Move Blobing confirm Kappa.
All auto-fire on indirect fire units is retard for COH series.

Yes, this might also be a good fix, I think I created a thread about this some months ago :-)

+1