Conscripts need to be balanced

Damn all these propositions for cons.
So what if the motherland has shit main line infantry.
Cons v colks they lose.
Cons + zis3 V volk + pupchen they win.
Don't get me started on with t70 V with luchs.
"Main line infantry"
Most people talk just cons V volks, they are not commandos. What's a mainline without it's backline?

How about just giving Sov a Conscript instead of an Engi when game starts

To the last man would probably be really fun on conscripts (-the extra durability) although if we remove flare mines that only leaves mortars, elite infantry, engineers and infiltration units with flares and im just not sure thats enough flares for 1 faction

To the last man would probably be really fun on conscripts (-the extra durability) although if we remove flare mines that only leaves mortars, elite infantry, engineers and infiltration units with flares and im just not sure thats enough flares for 1 faction

Nuu not muh flare mines!

They're so useless lol.

To the last man would probably be really fun on conscripts (-the extra durability) although if we remove flare mines that only leaves mortars, elite infantry, engineers and infiltration units with flares and im just not sure thats enough flares for 1 faction

Replace cons w/ flare for Penals. Job done

you know what how about we just forget about balance and make the game more retarded, for instance lets make cons cost 300 mp, lets take away cons shitty mosins and give them swords instead also lets lower molotov throw speed even more so it takes a whole minute to throw one and remove at nade at all because thats unfair for the nazis, instead of oorah and merge give them more trip flares

for penals I suggest to increase their cost to 500 mp, but since its heavier infantry we cant give them swords so lets give them slingshots and some rocks but lower their accuracy so they cant hit anyone, I would also suggest lowering the range on satchel because its still a bit too long, also lets make the satchel stick to penals instead of vehicles

it would be fun if we removed suppression from maxims at all because at this point they can still barely sometimes suppress axis and I think its unfair, also mp cost should be higher like 300

its obvious that soviet mortar attack speed is waaay too high compared to axis, I suggest lowering it and also lowering its range because its unfair that both axis and soviet mortars have the same range, clearly soviets dont need a mortar this good, I mean, if they dont need an infantry and a useful mg why would they need a mortar?

those are my few ideas for how to make the game at least more funny, let me know what ideas do you guys have

you know what how about we just forget about balance and make the game more retarded, for instance lets make cons cost 300 mp, lets take away cons shitty mosins and give them swords instead also lets lower molotov throw speed even more so it takes a whole minute to throw one and remove at nade at all because thats unfair for the nazis, instead of oorah and merge give them more trip flares

for penals I suggest to increase their cost to 500 mp, but since its heavier infantry we cant give them swords so lets give them slingshots and some rocks but lower their accuracy so they cant hit anyone, I would also suggest lowering the range on satchel because its still a bit too long, also lets make the satchel stick to penals instead of vehicles

it would be fun if we removed suppression from maxims at all because at this point they can still barely sometimes suppress axis and I think its unfair, also mp cost should be higher like 300

its obvious that soviet mortar attack speed is waaay too high compared to axis, I suggest lowering it and also lowering its range because its unfair that both axis and soviet mortars have the same range, clearly soviets dont need a mortar this good, I mean, if they dont need an infantry and a useful mg why would they need a mortar?

those are my few ideas for how to make the game at least more funny, let me know what ideas do you guys have

You forgot to mention how OP IS2 ISU152 and KV2 are...They all need to be nerfed too

The biggest issue for cons right now is that they weren't really considered when volks got the StG upgrades. In fact, not much with considered with volk StGs except removing their panzerschrecks.

Volks without StGs are much more in line with how the unit is supposed to function.

The StGs do two things: improve volks damage output at all ranges, and it eliminates their weakness: close range. Both cons and rifles are designed to function best at close range.

If the remaining Kar98ks are replaced with mp40s in the StG upgrade, Volks continue to have a weakness: which becomes long range. Rifles and cons would then benefit staying at range against upgraded volks and it would be the volks that would have to close.

The StGs just give volks the full strategic advantage the way they currently are.

This. Very trze,

This. Very trze,

yeah staying at long range... rifles with lmg maybe but remember cons do not have any long range weapon upgrade

I was striving more towards cost effeciency balanced. Basically lets make the cost of a unit reflect its effectivness on the field. If volks were the benchmark for cons from my math if volks cost 250 mp cons should cost around 200 mp with reinforcement cost scaling from 25 to 12 mp at vet3. That would balance the game without changing anything else in it. And the cost I proposed doesnt even take into account the fact that you have to pay for 2 more upgrades for cons. This just balances raw fighting potential of a vanilla and vetted unit.

Also people here talk a lot about conscripts being better at close range, let me explain something to those of you who think cons have better dps at close range than any axis unit.

Close range squad dps (upgunned)
sturmpios - 65,32
pgrens - 63,12
rifleman - 38,30 (46,06 - 2 bars)
penals - 34,20
sappers - 30,92
pios - 28,96
grens - 24,88 (26,32 - mg42)
volks - 24,70 (44,26 - stg)
rear echelon - 23,12
cons - 21,42
tommy squad - 20,88
combat engis - 13,68

What close range are you fucking talking about? This is the dps of a squad not a single model. So even if you close the distance without losing a model YOU STILL LOSE. And remember axis units are stronger at long range, while your units are running with low accuracy they get shot at by axis with stable accuracy and dps advantage. Lets see how strong are axis squads at long range and especially where do cons fit in the picture:

Long range squad dps (upgunned)
tommy squad - 12,32
penals - 11,4
volks - 9,65 (11,48)
grens - 9,64 (14,42 - lmg)
sturmpios - 6,24
rifleman - 9,20 (9,42 - 2 bars)
pgrens - 7,44
cons - 5,28
rear echelon - 4,44
combat engis - 3,52
pios - 2,28
sappers - 1,44

So in sum, you pay 240mp (the same price as a grenadier unit) but you get a unit worse at every range. 4 man squad with a long range weapon profile has better squad dps than a 6 man unit at close range xD. And every encounter starts at long range, where axis have the most dps advantage so before you even get into close range you will probably already lose one man lowering your dps in 1v1 scenario. And since axis units have long range weapon profile they dont have the need to close the distance, they will just continue to push with a blob at max range. So to even close in the distance on 3 units blob you need to have at least 4 units. With cons you would have to have at least 5 units, since 1 unit will most probably get focused and bursted down at max range before it even closes in the distance. And since your cons still dish out worse dmg at close range you need 1 more unit to outdamage the enemy. So you basically need 1200 mp of inital investment mp to counter 720 mp. Unholy imbalance. One might say that the reinforcement cost is a form of compansation. 30 for grens, 20 for cons. But its not, because you actually need to deal dmg and kill a model to force the enemy to reinforce. Comparing cons to volks is just pointless, just look at the dps, you have literally no way of outdps them at any range. Volks deal 15% more dmg up close (106% more upgunned), 82% more dmg at long range (117% upgunned) and they cost only 4% more initial mp and 25%
more reinfocement cost.

Thats why I just want the unit cost to represent its performance in comparison to other units of the same tier. Initial mp cost should reflect vanilla unit performance. While reinforcement cost should scale with vet and weapon upgrades to reflect its increasing late game performance.

Other great argument is that soviets dont really need a line infantry, because... yeah because of what? Because their support weapons are so high quality? Which one? Maxim, mortar or maybe you should build zis guns to kill infantry? Soviets always had a big problem with killing infantry. After penals buff everyone switched to them because now they are the only effective unit they have. Penals on the other had are just expensive and they come in very late when compared to okw for instance. You field so few of them early that you lose map pressure by the time that volks get upgunned with stg and start winning against penals close range. And since they also have incediary nades by that time they start spamming them to force you out of any cover. You might say that penals have good long range dps, which works only when you can stay in cover. Simple ost grens will always be the best long range unit because of the rifle nades. And in 2v2 environement where ost move with 3 squad blobs everywhere there is almost no chance of spotting or hearing a rifle nade.

I mean raw stats dont really reflect the imbalance in this game. There are a lot of other small things.

Infantry models all have 80 health, with few exceptions for snipers.

Any 4 man squad is 320 damage to wipe.
Any 5 man squad is 400 damage to wipe.
Any 6 man squad is 480 damage to wipe.

Most squads need to retreat by the time they're down to 2 squad members.

160 damage for 4 man squads.
240 damage for 5 man squads.
320 damage for 6 man squads.

Six man squads can absorb twice the damage of a 4 man squad. That's a major component to infantry squad effectiveness that is altogether ignored by dps calculations.

Volks being 5 man AND having an upgrade that protects them from any infantry advancing on them is definitely something that overshadows cons more than anything.

Cons versus ostheer is very different, and even within the realms of balance.

What? Twice the damage means 320 x 2 = 640 not 480. Let me repeat myself for those of an IQ of a retarded chimp with a brain tumor having a stroke who accidentaly got hit on the head with a big rock.

If you actually read what he said instead of being an ass you would see his reasonable assumption that one retreats when they get to 2 men. So grens can suffer 160 damage before retreat, and Cons (and any SU squad) can suffer 320 damage before retreat. 320 is 2x 160.

Try exercising that reading comprehension skills you are supposed to have.

Also your numbers seem off in the above post, Volk STGs dont add 10 close range DPS each.

If you actually read what he said instead of being an ass you would see his reasonable assumption that one retreats when they get to 2 men. So grens can suffer 160 damage before retreat, and Cons (and any SU squad) can suffer 320 damage before retreat. 320 is 2x 160.

Try exercising that reading comprehension skills you are supposed to have.

Also your numbers seem off in the above post, Volk STGs dont add 10 close range DPS each.

Oh I do read with comprehension but his assumption is just simply bad. 2 grens? And how many cons are left by that time? if 5 cons reach grens its 4v5. for there to be 2 grens left it would probably have to be 3 or less cons. Unlikely scenario at best. More probably grens will lose 1 model in every engagement killing 4-5 cons. Seen it too many times. Thats why I went a step further ahead and elaborated on the dps to hp ratio. And since that was already directed toward a retarded monkey level of iq it seems I have to yet again lower the bar. At least now I know who Im playing against.

P.S.
Funny, Im high ranked in both 1v1 and 2v2 but I dont remember ever playing against you Hoshi Although it seems you are ranked 86 in 2v2 as OKW (figures) with 2197 wins and 1228 losses (3425 in total) while your second most played faction is ost 302 times, sadly you played allies only 113 times (ukf 10 times, usf 11 times, sov 92 times) You played ost 10 times more than you played allied factions combined and okw over 100 times more than allies. This is a balance topic and your game experience is far from balanced. First try to play some allies and understand their point of view before you talk in balance topics. Second, dont hide your player card, if you're an axis fanboy then just embrace that fact and inform everone by showing it so they dont actually take your words seriously. You clearly dont want the game to be more balanced so either be frank about it or stop talking in balance topics.

Volks deal 15% more dmg up close (106% more upgunned), 82% more dmg at long range (117% upgunned) and they cost only 4% more initial mp and 25%
more reinfocement cost.

But Volks have 27% ((440-320)/440) less total HP, stop just looking at one side of the equation

Also going by your formula, you can compare volks to penials and see what crazy improvement Penials are for their cost.

They do (by your questionable numbers) penials do 27% more damage at close range, 15% more damage at far range, 17% more HP, at the minimal cost increase of 20% and 0% reinforcement cost.

Oh I do read with comprehension but his assumption is just simply bad. 2 grens? . At least now I know who Im playing against. Funny, Im high ranked in both 1v1 and 2v2 but I dont remember ever playing against you Hoshi

Its not an assumption if its true, Fights dont occur until last man standing. And either way, you didn't actually read what he said, so you kinda owe him an apology.

and being ranked 50-100 in 2v2 isnt high lol

Don't forget that Cons also have bullet-magnet initial recived accuracy as well as require more investments to provide utility functions.

Don't forget that Cons also have bullet-magnet initial recived accuracy as well as require more investments to provide utility functions.

Believe me my friend, someone has probably already mentioned that fact somewhere along the line but how do you persuade someone who has 4k games with okw and playes nothing else that cons need a buff or price adjustment? From his skewed point of view this presents a risk that the game will not only become harder but also less fun. What if soviet infantry can actually hurt you? What then? So no ammount of data or argument will make them change their mind. Sad thing is there is no requirement of game experience or rank to talk in blaance forum. Otherwise trolls like insanehoshi would be banned.

Hey thats actually a good idea. Lets implement a rank or play ammount needed to talk in balance forum. You would have to get a clearence from the forum mods or something after you've shown your playercard. Top 100 with all factions would be best but I think top 200 or 300 with all factions in a specific gamemode would be sufficient enough for me. That would exlude onetrick ponies and oneside fanboys.