Company of Heroes 2 Not so Balanced US Forces need real Buff

USF blob best blob can't stop them once they veted up.

USF blob best blob can't stop them once they veted up.

Strange... For USF in some tough building maps in 1v1 its so damn hard to force early HMG out of the buildings...
And any mainline infantries blob is hard to stop whether Axis or allies.

Grenadier can not stop Riflemen especially since riflemen have little reason to attack and can now stay behind cover and wait for mortar support.

Riflemen no longer need smoke grenades (they can be moved to officers or elite infantry) and especially ones that disable the weapon of vehicles even when out of smoke.

Conscripts can not fight VG especially since the now have weapon that do not follow "weapon profiles" logic and are good at all ranges.

Penal and SVT are again weapon that do not follow "weapon profiles" (especially combined with veterancy bonuses)again being too good at all range while being too good on the move also.

All mainline infantry should be re-balanced one vs other once more with grenadier (no lmg) as base line.

You are fixing a car that ran out of fuel by replacing the engine.

"Weapons profile rule" still applies to wfa.
Bar and stg are less powerful than mg42 and bren at range, they identify as versatile mid range over mg's long range and "sturm/panzergrenad" stg, thompson and ppsh.

You talk about veterancy, good luck at disloging a mg42 gren in green cover or bren is in green cover (rightfully balanced) when vetted

1) usf shouldn't have mortar, but tier 0 smoke
2) penals should be changed, either lose all stv and become cannon fodder and cons should get a three stv package, but should lose hourraaa
3) brens and bar should be limited to one per squad.

Hello
snip

Look, USF are on a bit of a back foot but you've just got to out-micro your opponent.

That's all it is. Just know what engagements to take and know when you'll win and you'll win.

+1

You are fixing a car that ran out of fuel by replacing the engine.

"Weapons profile rule" still applies to wfa.
Bar and stg are less powerful than mg42 and bren at range, they identify as versatile mid range over mg's long range and "sturm/panzergrenad" stg, thompson and ppsh.

V.G. STG do not follow weapons profiles, they are simply too good at all ranges and their profiles are completely different from the STG of other units.

Weapon profiles introduction had two goals.

One to categorize weapons into "types" and have them behave similarly according to type.

Two to create weapons that excel at certain ranges and are weaker in other ranges.

V.G. STG fail in both categories.

Same goes for Penal's SVT.

V.G. STG do not follow weapons profiles, they are simply too good at all ranges and their profiles are completely different from the STG of other units.

Weapon profiles introduction had two goals.

One to categorize weapons into "types" and have them behave similarly according to type.

Two to create weapons that excel at certain ranges and are weaker in other ranges.

V.G. STG fail in both categories.

Same goes for Penal's SVT.

And bar, and retty much 60% of upgrades from lmg34 to g43.
It has become clearly a mechanic, that some upgrades make units kack of all trades.

Good suggestion for coh 3 but you won't see it in coh 2, too much changes at all and too much risk of huge imbalance that will require more and more patches, other than wasting a shitton of work spent on infantry balance.

FBP was great and made good steps forwanrd in limiting bren to 1, same should be done with bar, so Rifles won't excel agaonst specialized long range infantry and close range infantry like they do.

The idea of average at all ranges rather than specialized and extra good at X range is ok, the problem is extra good at all ranges, which isn't the case of penals and volks, but rifles.
Usf team weapons aren't weak anymore, arguably the most powerful indirect fire, the fastest hmg with a good dps---> they need to start good, like now, but not scale that well with 120 muni upgrades.

The idea of a specialized volks is bad honestly, it would either overlaps with sturm or obers...it should stay like that.
Guards should be long range infantry, shocks are close, so i'm for giving penals mosin at start and a three stv (stg like) upgrade.

And rifles..i would make browning non doc, making rifles either get 1 bar and stay "jack of all trades" or implement browning with para or rangers.

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The idea of average at all ranges rather than specialized and extra good at X range is ok, the problem is extra good at all ranges, which isn't the case of penals and volks, but rifles.
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Not it is not because "weapon profiles" goes along with "relative positioning" where a player tries to fight at the optimum range for the specific firefight. Mainline infantry that are good at all ranges like penal and STG V.G. make "relative positioning" a far less effective tactic since the enemy gains very little advantage regardless of range.

Not it is not because "weapon profiles" goes along with "relative positioning" where a player tries to fight at the optimum range for the specific firefight. Mainline infantry that are good at all ranges like penal and STG V.G. make "relative positioning" a far less effective tactic since the enemy gains very little advantage regardless of range.

That's not true at all, charge with volks/penals right through long range bren/mg42 and keep fighting at long-medium range.
You win't win without at least outnumbering the enemy 3:1.

Only double bar break those rules and are too good both at close and long range.
Both gren and IS vet to be the best long range infantry and penals and volks will have an hard time at close-medium range even outnumbering by a huge gap shick unit like ppsh and panzergrens.

Not evert army has a specialized mainline, and that's ok as long as they have an hard time against more specialized that are fighting in their optimal conditions.

Volks are meant to be the filler until doctrinal or ober infantry, used with sturm, they should retain such versatility because anything more specialized would make them either op or up.

Like i said, penals should come closer to volks in dps curve, and buy their stv, so they stop overshadowing shock troops.

Further add that those "JACK OF ALL TRADES" mainlines are in factions that aren't supported by a tier 0 hmg and in case of okw a barely decent one.

AND those troops, despite being numerous, have less RA than more specialized one.

FINALLY ukf and ost have specialized cqb units like panzergrens and R.EG.togheter with the best hmg's.

A mg42 gren/bren will still have upper hand against all three of those units (again except double bar) at long range and panzergren/commando will still dominate those at close range unless outnumbered (again except double bar).

Thinking of infantry balance with "specific optimal" positioning for every mainline is an utopia and ectremely disadvantaged for factions like okw and isf that trade such dps curve versatility with shitty team weapons or late team weapons abd lack of specialized non doc cqb unit.

DON't GET ME WRONG i can see your point, using rifles, volks, penals, despite still requiring tactics and map awareness, is much less FORGIVING indeed.
Yet we can agree that is faction design, not necessarily a flaw, at least until those factions can't rush 2 hmg to westwall buildings

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Thinking of infantry balance with "specific optimal" positioning for every mainline is an utopia and ectremely disadvantaged for factions like okw and isf that trade such dps curve versatility with shitty team weapons or late team weapons abd lack of specialized non doc cqb unit.
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Its not a utopia and it has been done already once in the "Update September 9th, 2014"
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2.

The problems started when Tommies where introduced and where not balanced vs other infantries. And the problem become worse when USF got a mortar with toning down riflemen which where OP by design and when Penal where balance with riflemen in mind (and not grenadiers) and when Volkgrenadier where desinged in dealing with riflemen and Penals.

Repeating steps like these one:

"Infantry Combat Tuning
The intent of these changes is to better define the strengths and weaknesses of each core unit relative to one another. We wanted to better define how each core unit should engage their perspective targets. For example, in a Grenadier vs. Riflemen match up, the Grenadiers want to maintain range. This is now a valid tactic, where in the past it was not. An integral element to this iteration is the introduction of received accuracy in place of raw damage. This was used in instances where additional fire power was not necessary in maintaining the established unit relationships. For example, Grenadier long range fire power is high enough to establish the unit’s relative relationship with other units, allowing us to increase their durability instead. As a by-product of this shift, short and mid range units should have an easier time closing in on their target."

would greatly help the early stage of the game.

Its not a utopia and it has been done already once in the "Update September 9th, 2014"
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p2.

The problems started when Tommies where introduced and where not balanced vs other infantries. And the problem become worse when USF got a mortar with toning down riflemen which where OP by design and when Penal where balance with riflemen in mind (and not grenadiers) and when Volkgrenadier where desinged in dealing with riflemen and Penals.

Repeating steps like these one:

"Infantry Combat Tuning
The intent of these changes is to better define the strengths and weaknesses of each core unit relative to one another. We wanted to better define how each core unit should engage their perspective targets. For example, in a Grenadier vs. Riflemen match up, the Grenadiers want to maintain range. This is now a valid tactic, where in the past it was not. An integral element to this iteration is the introduction of received accuracy in place of raw damage. This was used in instances where additional fire power was not necessary in maintaining the established unit relationships. For example, Grenadier long range fire power is high enough to establish the unit’s relative relationship with other units, allowing us to increase their durability instead. As a by-product of this shift, short and mid range units should have an easier time closing in on their target."

would greatly help the early stage of the game.

Yes ok, but you missed the part where i said usf mortar should be gone.

The utopia is not doing it, but doung it and pretend is balanced.

Let's look at usf/ost matchup as it shoud be imho.

Usf: start with riflemen, good at close to medium range and fairly ok at long, they have got tier 0 smokebut no mortar and need to unlock grenades and racks
Like you said, 50 cal is now FAR from trash (arguably third best hmg), captain gets aaht with FBP that help them until sherman HE, SO (FOCUS ON THIS) there is no reason rifles needs 2 bar, because THAT'S what makes them overperform against grens and at long range and panzergrens at close, not their starting stats.
23% cooldown bonus on doublelong cooldown-long accurate bursts weapons is what makes them overkill.

Ost: grenadiers can win only at long range against rifles, not only because of their substantial dps, but for RA (already a live thing so it doesn't need changes)..but they have gorlt a mortar to support early pushes, hmg42, a sniper to pick off models.

Like i said, if it TRULY gets zero support at start it should retain some versatility.

Volks are ok, a filler of mid gane quite weak that failagainst any specialized infantry, and isn't supported by great tier 1 hmg or best ai tank in game, but sturm.
At start they are a worse gren with fifth man.
Obers should lose suppression and get 340mp price tag in a splitted schewer like in FBP, where volks needs to be complemented in ai, while sturm should vet a bit faster.
You can get obers or a panzer 4, but obers are more accessible.
Or you can use call ins...or even get a ostwind...that goes to the player, gorcing a single option is never a good thing.
Same for rifles, para and rangers can complement ai rather than sherman/scott, or even barfinders.

Yes ok, but you missed the part where i said usf mortar should be gone.
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Actually what I saying is that mainline infantry need to rebalanced. So i am not sure where you disagree.

Actually what I saying is that mainline infantry need to rebalanced. So i am not sure where you disagree.

In which way ?

To me, removing the second bar is enough, the unit isn't overperforming in early game.

In which way ?

To me, removing the second bar is enough, the unit isn't overperforming in early game.

All infantry available before minute one should be re-balanced.

The performance of riflemen is actually tied to the rest of their units. If the rest of their unit continue to get buffed they should be nerfed since they are OP (by faction design) vs grenadiers (and thus Op generally since grenadier serve as the benchmark).

Thing about volks is that they're marginally less effective than most allied infantry (thinking about rifles and sections here, penals are a problem), but they cost wayyyy less in terms of both munitions and manpower, which means they can spam nades everywhere and trade much better in terms of manpower in most firefights. They also have probably the best mainline infantry grenade all things considered. This in a faction that's not really supposed to excel at infantry combat early-mid game (which is why they have the kubel) and that gets extremely powerful in lategame.

Thing about volks is that they're marginally less effective than most allied infantry (thinking about rifles and sections here, penals are a problem), but they cost wayyyy less in terms of both munitions and manpower, which means they can spam nades everywhere and trade much better in terms of manpower in most firefights. They also have probably the best mainline infantry grenade all things considered. This in a faction that's not really supposed to excel at infantry combat early-mid game (which is why they have the kubel) and that gets extremely powerful in lategame.

Because 3 mp per model, when full popcap means 120+ mp income per minute is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Like always, your claims about upgrades are nonsense, what about some FACTS even for other people so the bullshit propaganda stop spreading ? they get 2 stg for 60 muni and rifleman get 1 bar for the same cost.
A bar takes away only one garand.

The bar dps INCREASE is far/near is 5/14.7 - 1.84/7.66= 3.16/7.04
The double stg dps INCREASE is far/near 3.98/16.54 - 3.86/5.88= 0.16/10,66

The fact that you can make them get double bar and make the usf riflemen an overkill unit doesn't mean it is more expensive, riflemen compete and beat any mainline with a single bar upgrade (the second slot needs to be eliminated indeed now that usf has good team weapons).

Flame bade is merely an antigarrison, both grenades and flame nade meakes you inevitably move infantry, but flame nade can't wipe, it's simply a tool.
Ironical, i think any player would trade smoke "point and make hmg obsolete" and grenade for mainline over flame nade 100% always.

They don't get any particulary powerful in late game, they still have highest RA ever, even compared to cons, their dps is quite mediocre and the fail against vetted is/rifles if the enemy has the basic concept of cover in mind..that's why JLI, Obers, panzerfus, fallschirm are meta and so used while you rarely see rangers and para, since usf doesn't need those.

USF and UKF are the only 2 factions that are OP in this game.

USF and UKF are the only 2 factions that are OP in this game.

Made my day

USF and UKF are the only 2 factions that are OP in this game.

Ehm.....NO

Because 3 mp per model, when full popcap means 120+ mp income per minute is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Like always, your claims about upgrades are nonsense, what about some FACTS even for other people so the bullshit propaganda stop spreading ? they get 2 stg for 60 muni and rifleman get 1 bar for the same cost.
A bar takes away only one garand.

The bar dps INCREASE is far/near is 5/14.7 - 1.84/7.66= 3.16/7.04
The double stg dps INCREASE is far/near 3.98/16.54 - 3.86/5.88= 0.16/10,66

The fact that you can make them get double bar and make the usf riflemen an overkill unit doesn't mean it is more expensive, riflemen compete and beat any mainline with a single bar upgrade (the second slot needs to be eliminated indeed now that usf has good team weapons).

Flame bade is merely an antigarrison, both grenades and flame nade meakes you inevitably move infantry, but flame nade can't wipe, it's simply a tool.
Ironical, i think any player would trade smoke "point and make hmg obsolete" and grenade for mainline over flame nade 100% always.

They don't get any particulary powerful in late game, they still have highest RA ever, even compared to cons, their dps is quite mediocre and the fail against vetted is/rifles if the enemy has the basic concept of cover in mind..that's why JLI, Obers, panzerfus, fallschirm are meta and so used while you rarely see rangers and para, since usf doesn't need those.

Yes. 3 manpower per model of mainline infantry that has to act as more or less a crutch for the whole faction is a "huge difference". They are also more expensive to make but that really is marginal. They cost double the muni to be considerably more effective than volks. Again, be careful with using hard dps calculations, as they may not be as accurate as you think. I'm no expert but if anyone else wants to take the time/effort to confirm on this godawful thread then I tip my hat.

As for flamenades vs. pineapples, you really shouldn't be getting wiped by pineapples. Also, mainline infantry cover denial is a "huge difference". Pineapples deny cover for, in practical use, maybe 1-2 seconds, while flamenades usually deny cover past the end of the engagement. They also have no fuse and a normal grenade windup time, so are almost guaranteed to cause damage to a squad. Most other grenades are pretty easily avoided by infantry with decent micro. Garrison denial on mainline infantry is also a big deal.

Also, smoke and make hmg obsolete? Sure, if you already know where the enemy's mg is before it starts firing and/or he has absolutely zero supporting troops of any kind (even pios will rightfully demolish suppressed rifles), and/or if he's just an idiot and doesn't reposition, all of which cases signal you outplaying the enemy. Volks can basically just waltz up to an hmg from the front (even single squads can sometimes do this to vickers or maxims) and flamenade it, forcing a retreat. If you actually flank, it works even better.

I never said volks became gods in lategame, but I maintain that they are unreasonably cost effective in both manpower and munitions in a faction that they have no business being so in. Funny how obers are seen more than rangers or paras. Maybe it has something to do with how easy it is to float mp as okw and how they're nondoctrinal? Meanwhile usf has many different things pulling faction choices, elite infantry only being one.

Yes. 3 manpower per model of mainline infantry that has to act as more or less a crutch for the whole faction is a "huge difference". They are also more expensive to make but that really is marginal. They cost double the muni to be considerably more effective than volks. Again, be careful with using hard dps calculations, as they may not be as accurate as you think. I'm no expert but if anyone else wants to take the time/effort to confirm on this godawful thread then I tip my hat.

As for flamenades vs. pineapples, you really shouldn't be getting wiped by pineapples. Also, mainline infantry cover denial is a "huge difference". Pineapples deny cover for, in practical use, maybe 1-2 seconds, while flamenades usually deny cover past the end of the engagement. They also have no fuse and a normal grenade windup time, so are almost guaranteed to cause damage to a squad. Most other grenades are pretty easily avoided by infantry with decent micro. Garrison denial on mainline infantry is also a big deal.

Also, smoke and make hmg obsolete? Sure, if you already know where the enemy's mg is before it starts firing and/or he has absolutely zero supporting troops of any kind (even pios will rightfully demolish suppressed rifles), and/or if he's just an idiot and doesn't reposition, all of which cases signal you outplaying the enemy. Volks can basically just waltz up to an hmg from the front (even single squads can sometimes do this to vickers or maxims) and flamenade it, forcing a retreat. If you actually flank, it works even better.

I never said volks became gods in lategame, but I maintain that they are unreasonably cost effective in both manpower and munitions in a faction that they have no business being so in. Funny how obers are seen more than rangers or paras. Maybe it has something to do with how easy it is to float mp as okw and how they're nondoctrinal? Meanwhile usf has many different things pulling faction choices, elite infantry only being one.

1) NO, they only need 1 bar, 2 makes them a cost efficient killing machine OP AF.
They so powerful that will outdps any mainline with just one.
It's just a bullshit argument honestly, we ALL KNOW a single bar rifles have better dps than stg volks, stats are taken from the game code in coh 2, but anyway any INACCURACY has to be corrected by proportionally raising bith dps's.
Another fact is the RA, god awful RA even cons get better, as opposed to 0.61 RA of rifleman.

2) they AREN'T meant to be the crutch of anything more than grenadiers and is are, unless we eliminate he shells/scott/50 cal(aka third best hmg in the game)...than yes, they surely become the crutch of usf.

3) it doesn't matter, you won't dodge pinapple if you don't move before they throw it, and at that point you cal also see volks throwing it, getting potentially no flame damage.
Anyway it is surely much less forgiving and people wouldn't throw pinapple if micro intensive moments wouldn't allow for wipes because of distraction, even for the best players, but if i shouldn't get wiped by pinapple you shouldn't get cover denial.
It's 30 muni to deny cover compared to 30 muni to pick off 1-2-3 models off or entire squad. Flame nades have no fuse and a normal animation because COST as a grenade (quite a point isn't it ?).

4) they can break any suppression and there is usually a non suppressed squad that can chase the crew nontheless.

5) They aren't cost effective at all, they lose to 3mp and 0 muni more squad, they lose to penals even with 60 muni more despite having same cost unless they have high vet, they drop like flies to enemy fire.

The reason you see obers is because volks can't keep up, pershing is meta so rangers should have also been seen frequently, they weren't tho because riflemen are supermen that can run and gun at ANY range with 120 muni, with that nonsense double slot.