Volksgrenadiers

@Nano. I don't really know what you have to invest into your volks, everything is unlocked with your tiers. The only investment is the 60mu STG upgrade. Losing a vet5 volks or anything vet3 is about the same problem.

Yeah I am not entirely sure what I meant either now that I think about it. I think I was getting at Volk feel like they take forever to get to vet 5, riffle and penal seem to vet to 3 faster. I guess I mean you need to invest effort into vetting them, taking risks when you normally wouldn't I guess?

It's true that losing any max vet unit is bad, but Volk are so poor with out vet that it's super hard to get any back up to that level from mid game and up. Usually better to just go right for Obers if you lose the important Volk.

volks lose vs upgraded IS, upgrades rifles and penals....whats ur problem?

use any of this units...and win

'

I mean they probably should considering the difference in resource costs

People complains about Volks while Soviet drools at having such a versatile mainline inf compared to Cons which are meatshield and Brit can only dream of good grenade (not counting yolo light gammon bomb) + snare in 1 unit.

People complains about Volks while Soviet drools at having such a versatile mainline inf compared to Cons which are meatshield and Brit can only dream of good grenade (not counting yolo light gammon bomb) + snare in 1 unit.

Penals? Sticky satchell, at weaponry, effective at all ranges weaponry and 6 men? Not versatile lol ? The problem with many of the OKW units is that they are either too versatile and thus overburdened, or just not versatile at all.

Penals? Sticky satchell, at weaponry, effective at all ranges weaponry and 6 men? Not versatile lol ? The problem with many of the OKW units is that they are either too versatile and thus overburdened, or just not versatile at all.

I'll argue that Guards are/were versatile but not necessarily Penals.
Penals are strong on the AI department but their snare is not reliable (unless the opponent makes a HUGE mistake) and the PTRS kills your AI in order to survive against whatever light vehicle your opponent rushes.

I'll argue that Guards are/were versatile but not necessarily Penals.
Penals are strong on the AI department but their snare is not reliable (unless the opponent makes a HUGE mistake) and the PTRS kills your AI in order to survive against whatever light vehicle your opponent rushes.

I dunno, that there is a tradeoff doesn't change the reality of their versatility.

Guards could hold off vehicles, hold their own against against axis squads that weren't on top of them with smgs or obers. They got real honest nades too.

They're just not cost efficient any more in any of their roles. Their callin status with free ptrs was a huge part of their strategic value.

Since penals can get the ptrs there isn't nearly the same strategic choice to utilizing guards. The threat of ptrs is always implied instead of being a doctrinal choice.

If soviet t2 had been addressed instead of just nerfing/radically altering the maxim to effectively force soviets into using the new penals, we might've seen something other than the meta shift from a couple guards commanders to one bloody commander.

I agree with Vipper and another guys. Problem of VG are not easy to fix, coz thay can be dead like cons or close. Vet and small arms of VG and another units are problem in late game.
Dont forget guys with 2 STG folks cannot pick up another weapons, imo somethimes its hurt very hard.
Dont forget about synergy, coz luchs arrive to fast.

The problem with volks is not really the unit itself so much as the synergy with the luchs, medkits, and kubel (vs brits and USF).

5-6 minutes from game start you get a massive power spike with STGs rolling out, flame nades popping, immediately followed by the luchs- which can and will end the game if you don't have AT.

So you have a conundrum as the allied factions in that your infantry can no longer deal with volks, and yet you're going to have less infantry / team weapons to deal with the volks because you need to sink quite a lot of MP and possibly fuel to prevent the instant death condition that is the luchs. This is the steamroller that's such an issue now- volks are OP as part of this build but not otherwise.

Case in point - OKW T1 starts, which i've never ever personally had problems dealing with in recent months. Med truck starts get hammered by light vehicle play from LT and Sov T3, HMG spam (even as USF!), snipers, just about everything- unless used with fusiliers (which themselves are imbalanced).

Volks, of course, receive identical upgrades and unlocks after both med and mech, but with med truck allied factions can keep stacking on the anti-inf firepower and volks never become a problem then because OKW never gets the momentum.

This is very similar to how ostheer suffered vs USF back in the day- you needed a pak to avoid getting rolled by the M20, but the free LT meant that by sinking MP into antitank you lose all your map control to superior inf.

Volks have 5 men and hit their RA bonuses too quickly making them very tough, while getting an upgrade that doesn't hurt their long ranged DPS while punishing units like Riflemen for closing into them to their "ideal" range, as well has having their uber molotovs to deny cover or stop assaults, fausts to defend themselves from vehicles and can build their own cover.
It's just too much, and that's not even considered the fact OKW has Sturms+Kubel to harrash in the early game, plus the Luchs which as stated above it's a death sentence if you don't have AT ready to go.

No matter the reason a faction that loses on average 60% of the time is simply NOT over-performing. One could actually claim that is under-performing.

What if I told you that OKW is OP compared to vanilla soviets, usf or ukf without croco.

The problem is that they are facing penals + dushkas into sherman spam 8/10 times. And we all know how OP this strategy is and how much is OKW weak against instapinning hmgs and strong medium tank spam (raketten).

Once you nerf dushka and tie sherman to tier, you´ll see how good the OKW is against Soviets or USF

Once you nerf dushka and tie sherman to tier, you´ll see how good the OKW is against Soviets or USF

Yeah this going to be a troublesome situation for sure.

The problem with volks is not really the unit itself so much as the synergy with the luchs, medkits, and kubel (vs brits and USF).

5-6 minutes from game start you get a massive power spike with STGs rolling out, flame nades popping, immediately followed by the luchs- which can and will end the game if you don't have AT.

So you have a conundrum as the allied factions in that your infantry can no longer deal with volks, and yet you're going to have less infantry / team weapons to deal with the volks because you need to sink quite a lot of MP and possibly fuel to prevent the instant death condition that is the luchs. This is the steamroller that's such an issue now- volks are OP as part of this build but not otherwise.

Case in point - OKW T1 starts, which i've never ever personally had problems dealing with in recent months. Med truck starts get hammered by light vehicle play from LT and Sov T3, HMG spam (even as USF!), snipers, just about everything- unless used with fusiliers (which themselves are imbalanced).

Volks, of course, receive identical upgrades and unlocks after both med and mech, but with med truck allied factions can keep stacking on the anti-inf firepower and volks never become a problem then because OKW never gets the momentum.

This is very similar to how ostheer suffered vs USF back in the day- you needed a pak to avoid getting rolled by the M20, but the free LT meant that by sinking MP into antitank you lose all your map control to superior inf.

Well stated analysis. I agree with your assessment entirely. Faction design is not just one units performance and functionality.

The problem with volks is not really the unit itself so much as the synergy with the luchs, medkits, and kubel (vs brits and USF).

5-6 minutes from game start you get a massive power spike with STGs rolling out, flame nades popping, immediately followed by the luchs- which can and will end the game if you don't have AT.

So you have a conundrum as the allied factions in that your infantry can no longer deal with volks, and yet you're going to have less infantry / team weapons to deal with the volks because you need to sink quite a lot of MP and possibly fuel to prevent the instant death condition that is the luchs. This is the steamroller that's such an issue now- volks are OP as part of this build but not otherwise.

Case in point - OKW T1 starts, which i've never ever personally had problems dealing with in recent months. Med truck starts get hammered by light vehicle play from LT and Sov T3, HMG spam (even as USF!), snipers, just about everything- unless used with fusiliers (which themselves are imbalanced).

Volks, of course, receive identical upgrades and unlocks after both med and mech, but with med truck allied factions can keep stacking on the anti-inf firepower and volks never become a problem then because OKW never gets the momentum.

This is very similar to how ostheer suffered vs USF back in the day- you needed a pak to avoid getting rolled by the M20, but the free LT meant that by sinking MP into antitank you lose all your map control to superior inf.

Very good post. Agree with everything you said. Only thing I find questionable is that you think Pzfüsiliere are unbalanced. I find Füsilier strats generally underwhelming. They would be OP if they were T0 but since you need 2 CP they generally arrive too late to really become a problem. I rarely use them and everytime they were used against me I found them easy to deal with. I am not saying they arent very good mainline infantry but the doctrine is generally bad and offers very little else which makes the Panzerfüsliere seem meh...

Volks have 5 men and hit their RA bonuses too quickly making them very tough, while getting an upgrade that doesn't hurt their long ranged DPS while punishing units like Riflemen for closing into them to their "ideal" range, as well has having their uber molotovs to deny cover or stop assaults, fausts to defend themselves from vehicles and can build their own cover.
It's just too much, and that's not even considered the fact OKW has Sturms+Kubel to harrash in the early game, plus the Luchs which as stated above it's a death sentence if you don't have AT ready to go.

+1

also the flakHT is really good now since it has smoke its hard as fuck to kill and you cant chase it when theres camoes raktens and volks have AT snares.

Volks should never of gotten incnediary nades that was relics bullshit thinking when at the time they were asking for better ways to clear garrisons with the idea of working a flame thrower doct (like brits and USF)
instead they get that and incendiary nades that way they can stop the other team from using houses why they exploit the dumbass house meta since for some reason volks take no dmg in houses.

If anything take away incendiary nade spam dumb to begin with and not needed when you have sturms and kubels to clear houses. Sturms easily do it themselves if you know how to micro.


I would really rather have shrek blobs back and stgs and at nade taken away and the bullshit rakaten camo too.

Volks should never of gotten incnediary nades that was relics bullshit thinking when at the time they were asking for better ways to clear garrisons with the idea of working a flame thrower doct (like brits and USF)
instead they get that and incendiary nades that way they can stop the other team from using houses why they exploit the dumbass house meta since for some reason volks take no dmg in houses.

If anything take away incendiary nade spam dumb to begin with and not needed when you have sturms and kubels to clear houses. Sturms easily do it themselves if you know how to micro.

No one should have to pick a doctrine to clear garrisons.

Yes flame grenades can be annoying but if they weren't on Volk in the current line up there would be certain scenarios where it is just game over as soon as a Vikars of Inf section get into the buildings. It's already bad enough having to veto certain maps just get around this.

Ideally Sturm Pio should have flammer as non-doctrinal and Volk should have their faust/regular nade all locked behind either first truck deploy or some t0 unlock (or not flammer but smoke on ISG). But we don't do simple things that make sense, instead we remove features and rework entire teams.

Also why cant volks drop their stgs??????? thats horseshit. If they do ive never seen it happen. Like obers very very rarely but volks never seen it.

No one should have to pick a doctrine to clear garrisons.

Yes flame grenades can be annoying but if they weren't on Volk in the current line up there would be certain scenarios where it is just game over as soon as a Vikars of Inf section get into the buildings. It's already bad enough having to veto certain maps just get around this.

Ideally Sturm Pio should have flammer as non-doctrinal and Volk should have their faust/regular nade all locked behind either first truck deploy or some t0 unlock. But we don't do simple things that make sense, instead we remove features and rework entire teams.

with good micro on sturms eq, going to side with no windows or very few they can easily do it themselves especially if they open with double sturms. or just having the kubel there should be able to beat the IS inside easily.

House meta is dumb but I also dont understand why volks or soo much more unkillable in houses then grens rifles cons etc

First off, this is not a rant thread, I would really like to hear a discussion on this unit from high level players (my OKW rank is fairly low, so feel free to take that into consideration when telling me why I'm wrong!).

At the moment, it seems Volks are just in control of this game, either when I use them or when they are against me. They are cheap and spammable, as is their flame nade, which can shift pretty much any engagement in their favour - it basically denies cover and garrison use to the other team. Their StG upgrade is cheap and effective, and the on-the-field timing means that upgraded Volks often face unupgraded enemies, and can easily push more expensive units off the field in many situations (Rifles, Tommies, and sometimes even Penals, depending on the map). Their faust does not require either vet or side-teching, and so once a few Volks are on the field, OKW has fausts everywhere.

I do admit that Volks are not the best infantry in the game and there are other problems in other factions (USF also blob, emplacements, etc. etc.). However I am surprised nobody is talking about them. At my automatch level OKW win pretty easily by spamming Volks supported with some other units, and lose pretty easily with most other strategies. Playing against them, even if you wipe say 2 squads early, due to the OKW resource situation they will just be rebuilt and come right back, supported by even more SPios, PFusils, or Jagers. That's why I think Volks may be the key to why OKW seems a bit OP in this patch, and I would like to hear some opinions on them! (Just to be clear, I'm talking mostly about 1v1 and I'm not asking how to counter a blob.)

TL,DR: when the OKW early game somehow has more and better infantry than other factions (even USF), and later can support them with their powerful support units, I feel that OKW has been left in a strange place due to the previous sequence of patches.

Possible changes I can think of:

• Cost increase to 280mp (straight nerf but IMO this is the correct price for Volks)
  
• Replace 2 x StG with 5 x mp40 (so that they don't get a no-brainer all-range upgrade)
  
• Give the flame nade a long fuse (this is what the balance team did in their mod)
  
• Add a tech or vet cost for their abilities (c.f. cons / rifles)
  

Every allied faction has superior infantry available. Penals, Riflemen, IS

Riflemen and IS can be upgraded with BARs and Bren. Double Bren > Volks + STGs


Allies have the early game advantage, this is undeniable. Why do you want to take away the balancing concept of Axis having a late-game advantage. They only beat Penals, not BAR rifles and Bren IS.

with good micro on sturms eq, going to side with no windows or very few they can easily do it themselves especially if they open with double sturms. or just having the kubel there should be able to beat the IS inside easily.

House meta is dumb but I also dont understand why volks or soo much more unkillable in houses then grens rifles cons etc

This is not always possible, some buildings don't have this weakness. Inf section with clear view and four windows will easily murder a Sturm squad before they even get close.

I agree things are dumb, but out right removing things or changing things with out adequate thought about the consequences is what got us to this retarded place to begin with. The flame grenades are required until there is some other viable way of dealing with garrisons.

Things got a bit better with the Flak half track now being an option to some degree with garrisons but it isn't really viable to buy it just for that since it's a bit slow to deal with bigger buildings and comes a tad to late depending on map and game mode.

+1

also the flakHT is really good now since it has smoke its hard as fuck to kill and you cant chase it when theres camoes raktens and volks have AT snares.

Volks should never of gotten incnediary nades that was relics bullshit thinking when at the time they were asking for better ways to clear garrisons with the idea of working a flame thrower doct (like brits and USF)
instead they get that and incendiary nades that way they can stop the other team from using houses why they exploit the dumbass house meta since for some reason volks take no dmg in houses.

If anything take away incendiary nade spam dumb to begin with and not needed when you have sturms and kubels to clear houses. Sturms easily do it themselves if you know how to micro.


I would really rather have shrek blobs back and stgs and at nade taken away and the bullshit rakaten camo too.

lol nano you cant really have a discussion with a guy who says things like this. the only faction that unfairly struggle vs volks is soviets (if they dont go dushka doctrine). USF and brits can handle it EASILY, if your struggling im sorry to say its a l2p issue