Volksgrenadiers

First off, this is not a rant thread, I would really like to hear a discussion on this unit from high level players (my OKW rank is fairly low, so feel free to take that into consideration when telling me why I'm wrong!).

At the moment, it seems Volks are just in control of this game, either when I use them or when they are against me. They are cheap and spammable, as is their flame nade, which can shift pretty much any engagement in their favour - it basically denies cover and garrison use to the other team. Their StG upgrade is cheap and effective, and the on-the-field timing means that upgraded Volks often face unupgraded enemies, and can easily push more expensive units off the field in many situations (Rifles, Tommies, and sometimes even Penals, depending on the map). Their faust does not require either vet or side-teching, and so once a few Volks are on the field, OKW has fausts everywhere.

I do admit that Volks are not the best infantry in the game and there are other problems in other factions (USF also blob, emplacements, etc. etc.). However I am surprised nobody is talking about them. At my automatch level OKW win pretty easily by spamming Volks supported with some other units, and lose pretty easily with most other strategies. Playing against them, even if you wipe say 2 squads early, due to the OKW resource situation they will just be rebuilt and come right back, supported by even more SPios, PFusils, or Jagers. That's why I think Volks may be the key to why OKW seems a bit OP in this patch, and I would like to hear some opinions on them! (Just to be clear, I'm talking mostly about 1v1 and I'm not asking how to counter a blob.)

TL,DR: when the OKW early game somehow has more and better infantry than other factions (even USF), and later can support them with their powerful support units, I feel that OKW has been left in a strange place due to the previous sequence of patches.

Possible changes I can think of:

• Cost increase to 280mp (straight nerf but IMO this is the correct price for Volks)
  
• Replace 2 x StG with 5 x mp40 (so that they don't get a no-brainer all-range upgrade)
  
• Give the flame nade a long fuse (this is what the balance team did in their mod)
  
• Add a tech or vet cost for their abilities (c.f. cons / rifles)
  

VOlks are OK
but their veterancy is not

remove selfhealing
remove extended vision
change their grenades

Nah, they are fine. But Maxim is still OP, it fires 3 bursts into a volks squad running right into it (through yellow-cover terrain), can't suppress and then after incenade dies into a deathloop on retreat. LELIC PLS!!!11

VOlks are OK
but their veterancy is not

remove selfhealing
remove extended vision
change their grenades

Exactly how is their vet OP? Their bonuses aren't that much better overall when compared to allied inf. and are outclassed when it comes to received accuracy (which is the strongest bonus imo)

Nah, they are fine. But Maxim is still OP, it fires 3 bursts into a volks squad running right into it (through yellow-cover terrain), can't suppress and then after incenade dies into a deathloop on retreat. LELIC PLS!!!11

Yeah Maxim is totally OP. Not only very powerful but also only locked behind a barely used T2 and cheap as hell at 260MP. I wonder why ppl even go for Dshk...

Soviet T2 is in great shape right now anyways. OP mortar, OP maxim and AT-Gun.

Their faust does not require either vet or side-teching, and so once a few Volks are on the field, OKW has fausts everywhere.

Volks have no shrecks until you build a truck so struggle against UC, WC251 (ok i admit it sucks) and M3 scout car.

250mp is not cheap. 280mp is way to expensive for them. upgraded volks lose 1v1 to upgraded riflemen, upgraded volks lose to upgraded IS, they lose to penals early and mid game but vet5 volk > penals in the late game.

Hopefully when cons get ther buffs they too can start beating them (in some situations). Both OKW and USF have potent mainline inf when comparing them to the EFA since they both have weaker support weapons.

If you nerf volks, you need to buff their support weapons but then they just become an ostheer 2.0.

VG over-perform on the other hand without them OKW will simply be under performing. What is needed is combination of changes to OKW to balance things out.



No matter the reason a faction that loses on average 60% of the time is simply NOT over-performing. One could actually claim that is under-performing.

VG over-perform for 3 reasons:
1) The buff at all range from the ST44 (there are other Allied infantry that are also too flexible in all ranges)
2) The incendiary grenade (denying cover)
3) The ability to make sandbags

Changes could include:
A) ST44 upgrade now gives 5 St44 but on semi auto mode about the DPS of M1. Squad has the ability to use "full auto" for a limited time for mu cost while stationary. DPS a bit lower than PGs mid/close.

B)Replace incendiary grenade with a normal grenade.

C) Remove ability for sandbags.

250mp is not cheap. 280mp is way to expensive for them. upgraded volks lose 1v1 to upgraded riflemen, upgraded volks lose to upgraded IS, they lose to penals early and mid game but vet5 volk > penals in the late game.

Hopefully when cons get ther buffs they too can start beating them (in some situations). Both OKW and USF have potent mainline inf when comparing them to the EFA since they both have weaker support weapons.

If you nerf volks, you need to buff their support weapons but then they just become an ostheer 2.0.

This.

The problem is that OKW has a very limited choice of infantry units (non-doctrinal), similiarly to USF. Obers just come too late (no vet vs vet units) and cost a lot, but still go down easily).

I think most problems stem from Volks survivability once they hit high vet, in combination with LeiG spam for example, which then manage to dish out loads of damage.

250mp is not cheap. 280mp is way to expensive for them. upgraded volks lose 1v1 to upgraded riflemen, upgraded volks lose to upgraded IS, they lose to penals early and mid game but vet5 volk > penals in the late game.

Hopefully when cons get ther buffs they too can start beating them (in some situations). Both OKW and USF have potent mainline inf when comparing them to the EFA since they both have weaker support weapons.

If you nerf volks, you need to buff their support weapons but then they just become an ostheer 2.0.

I totally agree that there is a balance required, and that OKW should actually have more powerful or versatile infantry than average, as per their design. However they should not have more powerful infantry and way more infantry at the same time

• Cons 240
  
• Grens 240
  
• Volks 250
  
• Rifles 280
  
• Tommies 280
  

I have to admit I think 250mp is cheap for Volks, considering the complete lack of sidetech costs (aside from the truck, but that's not an optional upgrade, it's not like you can go without one).

Also while you compared upgraded Rifles/IS to upgraded Volks, I'm not sure that's fair because as I said upgraded Volks are often facing unupgraded Rifles or IS, and by the time Rifles and IS get their upgrades OKW also has Obers / Jagers / PFusils. In early game USF v OKW the discrepancy is just ridiculous, you're facing off a RE + 3 vanilla Rifles against a SturmPio and 3~4 Volks with flame grenades and at least one StG upgrade, and Cons vs. Volks isn't even worth mentioning.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my interpretation but to me, although USF and Sov are supposed to have an early game advantage, it seems to me that OKW has both the best early game and the best late game at the moment (even if their mid-game is not as good).

I totally agree that there is a balance required, and that OKW should actually have more powerful or versatile infantry than average, as per their design. However they should not have more powerful infantry and way more infantry at the same time

• Cons 240
  
• Grens 240
  
• Volks 250
  
• Rifles 280
  
• Tommies 280
  

I have to admit I think 250mp is cheap for Volks, considering the complete lack of sidetech costs (aside from the truck, but that's not an optional upgrade, it's not like you can go without one).

Also while you compared upgraded Rifles/IS to upgraded Volks, I'm not sure that's fair because as I said upgraded Volks are often facing unupgraded Rifles or IS, and by the time Rifles and IS get their upgrades OKW also has Obers / Jagers / PFusils. In early game USF v OKW the discrepancy is just ridiculous, you're facing off a RE + 3 vanilla Rifles against a SturmPio and 3~4 Volks with flame grenades and at least one StG upgrade, and Cons vs. Volks isn't even worth mentioning.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my interpretation but to me, although USF and Sov are supposed to have an early game advantage, it seems to me that OKW has both the best early game and the best late game at the moment (even if their mid-game is not as good).

But what about Penals? It's not like you wouldn't see them literally every game. And then due to the dual weapons possible, IS and Rifles have a better scaling damage-wise. Volks stand out due to their high survivability, but with all the deadly stuff on the field (120mm, rocket arty of various kind, HE-Shermans, etc.), what is that really worth anymore?

... In early game USF v OKW the discrepancy is just ridiculous, you're facing off a RE + 3 vanilla Rifles against a SturmPio and 3~4 Volks with flame grenades and at least one StG upgrade, and Cons vs. Volks isn't even worth mentioning.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my interpretation but to me, although USF and Sov are supposed to have an early game advantage, it seems to me that OKW has both the best early game and the best late game at the moment (even if their mid-game is not as good).

RE+3x Riflemen = 1.040

ST+3x VG+ set medic truck = 1350

Faction have around the same value of units at same time so I doubt that what you describing is normal scenario (since OKW have around 30% more field value presence in your scenario)

I totally agree that there is a balance required, and that OKW should actually have more powerful or versatile infantry than average, as per their design. However they should not have more powerful infantry and way more infantry at the same time

• Cons 240
  
• Grens 240
  
• Volks 250
  
• Rifles 280
  
• Tommies 280
  

I have to admit I think 250mp is cheap for Volks, considering the complete lack of sidetech costs (aside from the truck, but that's not an optional upgrade, it's not like you can go without one).

Also while you compared upgraded Rifles/IS to upgraded Volks, I'm not sure that's fair because as I said upgraded Volks are often facing unupgraded Rifles or IS, and by the time Rifles and IS get their upgrades OKW also has Obers / Jagers / PFusils. In early game USF v OKW the discrepancy is just ridiculous, you're facing off a RE + 3 vanilla Rifles against a SturmPio and 3~4 Volks with flame grenades and at least one StG upgrade, and Cons vs. Volks isn't even worth mentioning.

Please tell me if there's something wrong with my interpretation but to me, although USF and Sov are supposed to have an early game advantage, it seems to me that OKW has both the best early game and the best late game at the moment (even if their mid-game is not as good).

If you want you can upgrade your Riflemen/IS almost as fast as Volks can upgrade their STGs. Some players delay weapon racks until mid/late-game but that´s not the norm AFAIK.

Conscripts shouldn´t even be in the discussion because in current state they are absolutly helpless against any axis mainline infantry. They do well vs Grenadiers in early game but that´s about it. The only setting in which they are borderline useable is maps with lots of CQC and PPSH upgrade but even then they require insane micro to be of much use just because how fast they die and how little damage they do at mid-long range compared to upgraded Grens or Volksgrens. That´s the reason why anybody uses Penals because that´s the only useful main-line infantry Soviets have at the moment.

OKW has bad support weapons. Raketenwerfer is very unreliable, MG34 sucks, no mortar. USF and Brits have good support weapons and tanks that are better value than their OKW counterparts.

I think when you consider everything you can´t seriously say that Volks are OP. They are just right in my opinion.

RE+3x Riflemen = 1.040

ST+3x VG+ set medic truck = 1350

Faction have around the same value of units at same time so I doubt that what you describing is normal scenario (since OKW have around 30% more field value presence in your scenario)

RE + 3xRM + Rack + T1 = 200 + 3x280 + 150/15 + 200/50 = 1550/75 (weapon + T1 available)
=
ST + 4xVG + set medic truck = 300 + 4x250 + 100/15 + 200/?? = 1600/?? I can't remember the T1 fuel cost.

1- The lieutnant comes much later than the 4th VG but with a LMG, this is usually the first squad equiped with an LMG on the field.
2- RE + 2xRM <<< ST + 2xVG. There is always a time gap between the 2nd RM and the 3rd one. While RM and VG are balanced around range early game, RE is <<< ST which shift the early game in favor of OKW.
3- Kubel hold perfectly RM squads early. As USF your main squad cannot play offensively vs a single kubelwagon. In addition of having a better starting unit, OKW also have the best early game unit to soak damage and deal damage to Riflemen squads, retreat and repear for free.
4- Rifle need to retreat to their base to equip LMG while Volks can do it on the field
5- OKW get access to flamnade without additional cost on their T1
6- VG can build their own sandbag which makes a huge difference early game. Green cover vs nothing.
7- VG need T1 to use pfaust while RM need to be vet1. So once T1 is up, any VG can use it while you rarely get all your RM vet one when your T1 is available.
8- OKW have T0 Atgun access, USF t0 Mortar access.
9- USF can build position for 125mp

First off, this is not a rant thread, I would really like to hear a discussion on this unit from high level players (my OKW rank is fairly low, so feel free to take that into consideration when telling me why I'm wrong!).

At the moment, it seems Volks are just in control of this game, either when I use them or when they are against me. They are cheap and spammable, as is their flame nade, which can shift pretty much any engagement in their favour - it basically denies cover and garrison use to the other team. Their StG upgrade is cheap and effective, and the on-the-field timing means that upgraded Volks often face unupgraded enemies, and can easily push more expensive units off the field in many situations (Rifles, Tommies, and sometimes even Penals, depending on the map). Their faust does not require either vet or side-teching, and so once a few Volks are on the field, OKW has fausts everywhere.

This isn't exactly correct. I play lots of OKW and have ever since release. It is true that their current stupid position sees them make Panzer Fuz and Obers almost entirely fun rather than required.

First; vet 0 non STG Volk are awful and need to fight at long range and in cover to even remotely do anything. They get owned by Tommy in cover, Riffle at med range and Penal. For Volk to be of any use they have to be heavily invested in with both their upgrades and vet. If you lose your highly vetted Volk mid or late game you will never really recover from it.

Second; Faust is NOT available with out tech, you need to deploy a truck. In fact I would argue that I am nearly forced to get a Med HQ/Mech HQ ASAP because of the prevalence of Clown cars and other stupid early light vehicles. Raketon is an option but their horrible accuracy and poor mobility early makes them a second choice.

Third; whom ever is complains about flame grenades can go jump off a cliff, because at this stage of the balance cycle it is literally the only viable weapon against garrisons for OKW early to mid game. Field guns are still bugged and some times can't shoot buildings and other flame weapons are locked behind a subjectively sub-par doctrine.

Fighting against Volk is just a case of supporting your units correctly, and not sending good after bad. If you see the STG upgrades and you do not have any Bren/BAR, do not fight head on if you can. You should never fight battles you clearly wont win (unless you can get cover advantage or what ever).

RE + 3xRM + Rack + T1 = 200 + 3x280 + 150/15 + 200/50 = 1550/75 (weapon + T1 available)
=
ST + 4xVG + set medic truck = 300 + 4x250 + 100/15 + 200/?? = 1600/?? I can't remember the T1 fuel cost.
....

Only T1 or T2 also give you access to a bonus unit either LT or Captain. So the balance is

1 RE+ 3 RM+ 1 officer and access to Weapons (free bar+Thompson or free Thompson)
vs
1 ST + 4 VG and access to Weapons and incendiary grenades. Which bring us back to my original point that OKW do not have more squad on the field in the same amount of time as claimed by OP.

Finally vs USF kubels work allot better than infantry.

Only T1 or T2 also give you access to a bonus unit either LT or Captain. So the balance is

1 RE+ 3 RM+ 1 officer and access to Weapons (free bar+Thompson or free Thompson)
vs
1 ST + 4 VG and access to Weapons and incendiary grenades. Which bring us back to my original point that OKW do not have more squad on the field in the same amount of time as claimed by OP.

Finally vs USF kubels work allot better than infantry.

They are much more versatile than RM once T1 is setup. And yes Kubel is probably the biggest offender early game.

Imo from my biais perspective, Kubel should see its armor nerfed and volks flamnade re-worked to be effective vs building only.

@Nano. I don't really know what you have to invest into your volks, everything is unlocked with your tiers. The only investment is the 60mu STG upgrade. Losing a vet5 volks or anything vet3 is about the same problem.

volks lose vs upgraded IS, upgrades rifles and penals....whats ur problem?

use any of this units...and win

volks lose vs upgraded IS, upgrades rifles and penals....whats ur problem?

use any of this units...and win

Why are you all acting like Volksgrenadiers are the elite of OKW infantry?