DevM vs. VonIvan reffing and player decision re: bugsplat

I'm a fan of Von but this all seems like a witchhunt to get something out of a obvious loss. Always sad to see drama overshadowing a exciting COH2 tournament, be thankfull that AE, Stormless and the whole GCS team to put in so many unpaid hours for this great tournament.

AE, Stormless and the whole GCS team to put in so many unpaid hours for this great tournament.

Not according to .org's very own Nostradamus, resident Frenchist and overall moron Le Saucisson_masque


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^ BS rules. Basically a get out of jail card for someone who can't, or won't listen to you asking for restarts, or the rules asking for restarts.

It was either lazy, or worse, arrogant on the part of DevM considering his "colourful past" in regard to bug splats.

Hmm yeah DevM allowing people to replay despite them bug splatting

Also nearly every major tourney ever in this community has had some exaggerated meta drama, SNF, OCF, ESL, War Paint. There's a certain portion of the community only out for the drama. That's why a lot of this thread should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I think if DevM's name was removed from this scenario it would be different.DevM plays mechanically it seems with little or no elan.He is a very good player but I don't think he has a grasp on the heart of the game.I'm not picking on him it just seems that way to me.

^ BS rules. Basically a get out of jail card for someone who can't, or won't listen to you asking for restarts, or the rules asking for restarts.

It was either lazy, or worse, arrogant on the part of DevM considering his "colourful past" in regard to bug splats.

devm restarted after almost every game, its not his fault man :/

There where only two right decisions imo.

1) The game goes to VON because of the DEVMs bug splat, simple as that.

2) VON could man up and admit that the game was over.

Because it was VON, you had a P4 with no health and no repairs, 3 Fussis, only one of them with 6 man, 111 MP, 7 Munis, 40 Fuel and NO map control.
DEVM had 2 M10s, 1 Bulldozer Sherman and 1 Stuart. 1 MG, 2 RM and LT + CPT.


Anything other then that was wrong (that's why we have this Shitstorm now).

P.S. I read your post and couldn't see the Lie from A_E in there, maybe i am blind.
Also don't forget, you said YES to the agreement.

This game was OVER and you know it. Don't get me wrong, i was on your side. I was hopping to see you in England, fighting for USA

I'm not here to beat a dead horse for what's already been said. Changes I'd like to see is that if a caster or organiser and even a ref have any bias towards a player they're not allowed any contact to any authorising refs. As A_E as we all know has bias towards Aimstrong and DevM and got himself involved. I'm not saying he did or even crossed his mind but any one that clearly shows bias towards a player SHOULD NOT be able to have a hand in such decisions to remove all doubt to fans and viewers.

Why?

I'm not saying A_E is would but having someone that's biased in a decision making role opens speculation to match fixing, preferable treatment etc. AGAIN IM NOT SAYING A_E WOULD DO THIS. Just clearly stating that viewers and fans can speculate on such things.

How do we fix this?

A number of ways from
- Bug splat you are deemed to have thrown in the towel. VPs from when you bug splatted are recorded.
- Rematch ( This one to have effect, a bug splat report MUST be shown to a ref, No exceptions)

I'm sure a whole bunch of others could be thrown around but atm nothing else is coming to mind.

I'm not here to beat a dead horse for what's already been said. Changes I'd like to see is that if a caster or organiser and even a ref have any bias towards a player they're not allowed any contact to any authorising refs. As A_E as we all know has bias towards Aimstrong and DevM and got himself involved. I'm not saying he did or even crossed his mind but any one that clearly shows bias towards a player SHOULD NOT be able to have a hand in such decisions to remove all doubt to fans and viewers.

Why?

I'm not saying A_E is would but having someone that's biased in a decision making role opens speculation to match fixing, preferable treatment etc. AGAIN IM NOT SAYING A_E WOULD DO THIS. Just clearly stating that viewers and fans can speculate on such things.

How do we fix this?

A number of ways from
- Bug splat you are deemed to have thrown in the towel. VPs from when you bug splatted are recorded.
- Rematch ( This one to have effect, a bug splat report MUST be shown to a ref, No exceptions)

I'm sure a whole bunch of others could be thrown around but atm nothing else is coming to mind.

Those two points are fair enough, but I would also add some more: have more referees (like a small team), who decide autonomously - without influence of casters and/or players. But at the same time, have stricter rules (which leave no room for interpretation) and don't let the players decide, since they will naturally insist on what's best for them, but not necessarily what is just.

With all respect, I hope you don't count me, Cruzzi, Tasinia and few other people who shown their views about the situation in a polite way as haters. I can say for myself and I think also many other posters in this thread, that whatever we said here was only aimed to make future tournaments even better than the one we are experiencing at the moment. Especially as improving rules of future tournaments is also big part of opening post.

I also hope that A_E, Stormless and all the other people that may have felt discouraged by this thread are not going to be. I'm a huge fan of A_E and even though he makes mistakes like every other human being, if I was to choose the person to organise another community founded tournament I would definitely choose him among all curent community members. There is nobody else as trustworthy and passionate about the game.

+1

For what it's worth:

I was rooting for VonIvan, but DevM played brilliantly and in the end I'm fairly confident he'd take the win and advance to the finals no matter what happened.

HOWEVER

Using Formula 1 as an analogy:

If a driver's in the lead for 90% of the race, feeling confident, cruising to what's looking like a smooth victory but suddenly, his engine goes boom and the driver's forced to retire, what happens then?
Usually, the guy behind takes the win and, due to F1 regulations, the driver previously in front gets a grid penalty for having to swap engines in order to compete in the next race event.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127346

Considering DevM as Lewis Hamilton here for a minute, he obliterated Von's trucks (FeelsQuiteBadMan), had Von on the backfoot and then all of a sudden bugsplatted.

No matter how much DevM was leading this game, he crashed and was unable to finish game 4. In line with a lot of other tournaments, the person who bugsplats after a set amount of time is given the loss because they're effectively unable to finish the game. This should be quite obvious.

Considering Von still had the VP lead when his opponent dropped, it's weird to see that DevM had no "grid penalty" against him.

I do however somewhat understand the decisionmaking process as it happened. There were 1600 people watching the GCS semi finals, arguably making it the biggest CoH2 event as of yet.
Both AE and Stormless were doing a tremendous job, maintaining their high standards regarding production & casting quality. When something as unexpected, unique and unprecedented as that happens, shit can and will hit the fan.

I'm 100% certain that, despite AE's "bias" towards DevM, he'd never, ever deliberatly make a decision that disadvantages one of the players in his tournaments. He holds sportmanship and fairness in the highest regard but he's only human and at that time, we have to understand that he might have been under a tremendous amount of pressure to both carry on with the stream as it was at the time without causing unnessesary delays and helping make a very important decision in a split second.

What's done's been done. As I said, despite really wanting VonIvan to win, I'm sure enough that DevM would've won the series eventually so I don't think that the decision that's been made would have had such an enormous impact.

If there's any future big tournaments however, I would urge the organisers to make the rules regarding busplats crystal clear so that there won't be a discussion of any kind.

Let's close this, let AE and VonIvan discuss this in person and resolve the matter.
When I was in Leicester last year, Stormless and AE were able to impress both their ESL hosts and the people from Sega that were present. Those guys never thought that such a relative old and unknown game could attract such a crowd and have such a dedicated scene and fanbase.

With an even bigger event coming up, it's time to show those guys again how we resolve conflicts and mishaps.
And plot twist, it's not by writing consipracy theories on a public forum...

To quote our immortal, beloved and slightly awkward former community manager Noun (praise be upon him)

"Let's all be awesome together"

only thing is : coh2 crash alot becouse it bad coded and not becouse of pc(cars) people use.

So if we use the F1 exemple : devm car had no trouble, it the The track of the f1 circuit had holes and damaged the car.

but devm should have restarted his pc after each game, and take a picture of bugslap.

you guys take this shit way too seriously, CoH is not even competitive in nature.

And for the people saying "Devm should have restarted his game!!11!" you are just idiots that don't understand how computers works. You can't prevent random crashes like that.

I am playing on intel integrated graphics because my gpu died and I managed to play 6 hours straight without crashing or even getting slowed down, but sometimes the game crashes 5 min into the first match, it's rare but it happens.

2) VON could man up and admit that the game was over.

Because it was VON, you had a P4 with no health and no repairs, 3 Fussis, only one of them with 6 man, 111 MP, 7 Munis, 40 Fuel and NO map control.
DEVM had 2 M10s, 1 Bulldozer Sherman and 1 Stuart. 1 MG, 2 RM and LT + CPT.

P.S. I read your post and couldn't see the Lie from A_E in there, maybe i am blind.
Also don't forget, you said YES to the agreement.

The chat logs were altered in his original post. He's changed them now to the original, but before he had "shut the fuck up" replaced with "be quiet", so as to make it look like I wasn't silenced from what I read.

I would also like to note that, while my army is obviously battered, my P4 was not destroyed, yes it was 1% health, and I had 3 squads and was about to get repairs. However what people keep forgetting is I still had 341 VPS to DevM's 191 VPS, meaning I had time to regroup, rebuild, and repair. People act like they've never seen coh2 miracle comebacks before, in high level play.


As a side note, what is done is done, I am not trying to alter anything or change the course of what has happened in the tournament, like I said, DevM advances, and I have congratulated him for it. My biggest regret in the tournament is not game 4 or 5, but game 1, where I chose to go maxims instead of penals. Maxims, even with bulletins and vet, cannot prevent flanks vs grens with the micro DevM had, I underestimated. I am respectfully upset about how things played out with the rules and what was said on steam and stream however, with game 4 and 5. I hope this issue will never arise again in the future, as it makes me sick to my stomach.

The chat logs were altered in his original post. He's changed them now to the original, but before he had "shut the fuck up" replaced with "be quiet", so as to make it look like I wasn't silenced from what I read.

I would also like to note that, while my army is obviously battered, my P4 was not destroyed, yes it was 1% health, and I had 3 squads and was about to get repairs. However what people keep forgetting is I still had 341 VPS to DevM's 191 VPS, meaning I had time to regroup, rebuild, and repair. People act like they've never seen coh2 miracle comebacks before, in high level play.


As a side note, what is done is done, I am not trying to alter anything or change the course of what has happened in the tournament, like I said, DevM advances, and I have congratulated him for it. My biggest regret in the tournament is not game 4 or 5, but game 1, where I chose to go maxims instead of penals. Maxims, even with bulletins and vet, cannot prevent flanks vs grens with the micro DevM had, I underestimated. I am respectfully upset about how things played out with the rules and what was said on steam and stream however, with game 4 and 5. I hope this issue will never arise again in the future, as it makes me sick to my stomach.

You chose to consult with momo and price during this. I know that because price was messaging me as it was going on. Two people banned for cheating during placements. You had your mind poisoned from the start and were never ready to see this fairly. You have propagated lies and confusion designed to cause as much drama as possible. And are attempting to play the role of Jesus for the crowd.

You lost even though myself and the referees gave you a free win.

You also chose to take me telling everyone to shut the fuck up, as a personal directive to you, when I said it to everyone. I edited the sentence in the chat log cus I was embarrassed I swore and came across so authoritarian. Not to hide any 'bias'.

Your bullshit is not flying with me. In fact you're beginning to look like a very sore loser.

it's time to stop posting, A_E

No hate to the constructive feedback people

we are all in a way giving valuable feedback to make things better in the future because we ALL want coh2 and its community to success.
Stop saying the people who disagree with you are simply 'haters' and want 'chaos',
honestly it makes me think to the way hitler dealt with jews & communist in 1936 : say they want to destroy everything because communist & jews are evil, so that he could destroy them freely later..

guess who destroyed germany ? definately not the jews and communist.

Bottom line is, if a bugsplat happens again their has to be evidence.

Definately agree with you on this point, DEVM is the one who got a bugsplat.
He got this (because ?) he refused to restart his computer before start of the game (as told by rules and repeated by referee), so why would VONIVAN have to suffer the consequences of a DEVM mistake ?

For what it's worth:
No matter how much DevM was leading this game, he crashed and was unable to finish game 4. In line with a lot of other tournaments, the person who bugsplats after a set amount of time is given the loss because they're effectively unable to finish the game. This should be quite obvious.

Still it's not obvious for some people, but you are indeed absolutely right.

-------------------

Vonivan provided us some very interestig UNEDITED picture of their chat between AE, him, DEVM and another referee.

I simply took 3 lines of this chat, but it's just like that all the way (see VonIvan post for more details) :

• Does it seems fair ?
  
• Does VONIVAN has to suffer the consequences of a DEVM mistake ? (refused to restart computer before round 4)
  
• Is that fair when in a 4 men chat, 3 of them have made their decision and VONIVAN is alone to defend his position ?
  
  

Some rules said explicitely that the man having BUGSPLAT should be considered as the looser, which is what happens in ALL the other sport as explained by VONKLUGE

Honestly, i think that mistakes were made during the decision making,
i hope this kind of constructiv feedback can help to make future better but i definately think that VONIVAN should get COMPENSATION for all these reasons.

In my opinion, victory should be granted to VONIVAN and round 5 should be done AGAIN but this time without giving to DEVM all these advantage.

You chose to consult with momo and price during this. I know that because price was messaging me as it was going on. Two people banned for cheating during placements. You had your mind poisoned from the start and were never ready to see this fairly. You have propagated lies and confusion designed to cause as much drama as possible. And are attempting to play the role of Jesus for the crowd.

You lost even though myself and the referees gave you a free win.

You also chose to take me telling everyone to shut the fuck up, as a personal directive to you, when I said it to everyone. I edited the sentence in the chat log cus I was embarrassed I swore and came across so authoritarian. Not to hide any 'bias'.

Your bullshit is not flying with me. In fact you're beginning to look like a very sore loser.

I'm trying to play any role as jesus for the crowd? You mis-interpret my intentions. How am I a sore loser? I congratulated DevM on his victory and advance. I am disputing what was said on stream and steam, and how the rules were thrown out the window during confusion. I was going to take this up privately until you posted this with an altered chat log, even if mis-understood. In fact I wouldn't have taken it personally if not for that and this:

https://clips.twitch.tv/TawdryLazyInternTwitchRPG

With Price and Momo. The only thing I have ever talked to price about is what strategy to try in the tournament, he has not consulted me with anything else. Momo has recommended I look at the altered chat log you posted, which surprised me, because, if you say it was because you didn't like how that sounded, you would have at least noted something was changed in the original post, I would respect that, you didn't. So to me that seems quite fishy.

Woah, this takes the features of a crusade and a counter-jihad. This tournament was supposed to bring the community together, not divide it once and for all, right?

To summarize the two positions, it would go as follows: A_E took a decision, which he regrets to some degree (?), but within a high-pressure situation, where he had to take care of the tournament organisation, the stream AND refereeing. In this context, he used inapporpriate language (who could blame him for that) to silence everyone. However, Von thought this was directed against him personally, and together with the bias towards DevM (which A_E has posted about previously), believes that he was cheated basically. A_E on the other hand stated more than once that this decision had nothing to do with any affiliation to DevM. Nevertheless, many people on the forum started to personally attack A_E, who in turn posted the (slightly altered) chat here. With the alternation and the discussions on the forums, the whole thing started to escalate up until now, where we probably reached a stalemate.

To summarize, this argument is less about the decision itself, but rather about personal allegations from both sides. Maybe you should start clearing up those first, before you can come to an agreement on the referee decision?

Woah, this takes the features of a crusade and a counter-jihad. This tournament was supposed to bring the community together, not divide it once and for all, right?

To summarize the two positions, it would go as follows: A_E took a decision, which he regrets to some degree (?), but within a high-pressure situation, where he had to take care of the tournament organisation, the stream AND refereeing. In this context, he used inapporpriate language (who could blame him for that) to silence everyone. However, Von thought this was directed against him personally, and together with the bias towards DevM (which A_E has posted about previously), believes that he was cheated basically. A_E on the other hand stated more than once that this decision had nothing to do with any affiliation to DevM. Nevertheless, many people on the forum started to personally attack A_E, who in turn posted the (slightly altered) chat here. With the alternation and the discussions on the forums, the whole thing started to escalate up until now, where we probably reached a stalemate.

To summarize, this argument is less about the decision itself, but rather about personal allegations from both sides. Maybe you should start clearing up those first, before you can come to an agreement on the referee decision?

To be honest I don't think the result is in doubt. More just my integrity is being questioned, as it could have been misinterpreted. I have some great ideas involving Von and Hans that will make everyone happy again. I will wait until this has settled down before I consult them.

To be honest I don't think the result is in doubt. More just my integrity is being questioned, as it could have been misinterpreted. I have some great ideas involving Von and Hans that will make everyone happy again. I will wait until this has settled down before I consult them.

Ah yes, smart move. Onwards though!

So A_E, why did you change the chat log in your favor?