DevM vs. VonIvan reffing and player decision re: bugsplat

Yeah the process sucked and will be improved upon in the future, that was what I made clear in the post. However the outcome was a fair and just rematch of g4. So I'm confident off the majority of people the integrity of the result is not in doubt.

Don't weasel your way out of this. You guys, and you especially, bend the rules and favored DevM. We all have proof of your bias and you made your own post about it as well a while back. VonIvan's post makes about 50 times more sense than your 'justifications'. Your referee was about to make a dicision based on the rules and you barged in the door and started changing the terms with your 'opinion'. DevM and your referee jumped on the bandwagon and VonIvan was left with nothing but to accept the nonsense 'terms' and DevM was portrayed as a Gentlemen for accepting them (LOL?).

"So I'm confident off the majority of people the integrity of the result is not in doubt". You can't be serious hahahaha...

You were not shut down you just chose to see it that way. I told everyone to shut the Fuck up, wrongly, but everyone. You are now playing the part of Jesus. Very disappointed you chose to do this instead of just speaking up in that chat or to me. I hope the drama is worth it to you.

there's a lot of money on the table, i believe that everyone would fight for it, so why you're surprised to that?

I see multiple times in that chat log, the call for restarts to be made by Hooligan.

I have to assume DevM didn't restart the game, hence the bug splat. Even though Hooligan and the rules both call for restarts, and DevM has a history with bugsplats.

Therefore, in my opinion, all other circumstances are immaterial.

DevM should have had the loss, and VonIvan should have had his choice, as the VP's (overall) were in his favour.

Bad decision making on behalf of the tourney organisers.

however the rules, from what I read, state to restart the game after every match, and report bugsplat screens, neither of which were done when DevM was giving his opinion

Sorry to hear that you are uneasy with the situation, Von. Reading the chatlog, I can totally understand why. First these very unlucky RNG bombs, situation is getting worse by the minute, so "Karma" gave DevM that bugsplat. Yay! I guess you assumed that this would grant you a win, like many tournament rules do. Hooligan then reinforces this view (because he uses the "bug-splat after x minutes: Loss!" rule in his tourneys).

Problem is, the rules of GCS do not state that. They basically say players should decide, if they can't agree a ref will decide. They don't require you to make a screenshot either (which in this case would be pointless anyways, or is anybody disputing DevM really had a bugsplat?). And the restart thing is actually more of a recommendation (the rule starts with "Please"). Even so, DevM might have restarted the game before this match, we don't know...

I x-checked a little, and this isn't even uncommon. The tourneys by Duke Jason basically have the same rule as GCS, TPI doesn't even have rules for that.

Now, the rules are a bit unspecific because they don't say exactly on what basis the refs should make the decision, or what possible rulings include ("Rematch, but this time the players need to wear funny hats!").

In comes A_E and basically overthrows what you expect to get and what Hooligan said (because A_E actually knows the rules), and comes across a bit rude. I totally get why you feel like you have been cheated there and that you are miffed after that. I would be!

While the rules are vague, it's obvious that the "bugsplat=autoloss" does not apply (otherwise the rules would say so), and one can guess that the intention is that the winner should be decided based on the current situation (ah, recipe for desaster). And even while you have a slim chance of winning, it would be fairly clear that 90% of people would have put their money on DevM at that point.

So, following the supposed intention of the rules it would be 3:1 for DevM, series over.

Now, A_E decides against that and grants you the win, but he feels justifiably that this is an unfavourable deal for DevM so he gives him map and faction selection. Again, the rules do not state what a ref can decide, so that's totally fine with the rules, but apparently the intention was that it should be either a win/loss or rematch. This is why A_E then said that this is extra to the rules (which I don't think is the case, it is probably extra to the intention of the rules).

Now, you can say: Well, faction & map choice is an autowin anyways, so, duh? But then DevM picks FA and same factions.

What other options would we have according to the "intention of the rules":

• Win for DevM (3:1 for him, end of series; given that you were seriously on the backfoot, this is probably the outcome the rules intended).
  
• Rematch on FA, same factions at 2:1 for DevM
  
• Win for Von (2:2 for him, proceed to game 5)
  

Ok, you didn't get the win awarded, and yes, according to rules of other tourneys this indeed would have been the outcome. But given the rules of this tourney, this seems like the unlikely outcome.

So, given DevMs choice of map and faction, you basically got a rematch, but at 2:2 (so better than the second option and way better than the first option). Or, effectively, the result would have been the same if you started the whole series with a 1:0 lead.

So, yeah, reading through the chatlog you didn't get a lot of empathy from the others and things could have been handled better, but A_E acted under the impression that he was actual kind of bending the rules in your favor...

Also, I've never seen the game carry on playing for a minute or so after somebody has bug splatted.

That is a new one for me.

I've seen plenty of times someone losing connection to the game with their internet, and the connection timer showing.

bend the rules

Which one specifically and how?

Show Spoiler

This. There's no need to push it anymore, what's done is done.

Show Spoiler

This. There's no need to push it anymore, what's done is done.

+1

Everything is said already and matches are over. Vonivan got the win, after Devm bugsplitted. And in game 5 Devm just played better vs the same tactic from Vonivan. The m20 fail mirco in game 4 was a key situation.
So thx for the drama and go forward now

Which one specifically and how?

The rules state that either the players come to an agreement, or the referee does. The referee got to a conclusion: Hooligan said that according to the rules, Von had the game.

Then AE showed up and starting influencing the decision process with his opinions and told Vonivan to STFU. Then when AE, DevM and Hooligan started carving up the unfair outcome and gave Von the terms, he had no choice but to accept them.

A person other than the players and the referee influenced the decision made and, for the most part, made up the decision by himself. This clearly breaks the rule.

Further more, when DevM bugsplatted the first time, AE told that he was known for offering players a rematch when a bugsplat happened. That particular game the bugsplat happened when DevM was somewhat on the backfoot. As far as I know, his opponent decided it would be a rematch based on DevM's good wills in previous bugsplat situations. However, VonIVan was not offered this choice when the bugsplat happened in their match. Even though he had VP lead. He wasn't even offered a choice, he was simply told to STFU and then had to wait before he was allowed to speak. By the time he was allowed to speak, his right to put forward a rematch based on good will was taken away from him and he had to accept very unfavorable terms or a loss.

If this isn't rule bending, then what is?

It has probably happened once or twice for me, in 4 years and over god knows how many games.

It was rare for me too.

But with last video drivers unpdate it happens very often now. Like every 3-4-5 games.

Some guys here talk about AE's bias. But look at the way you defend VonIvan and talk bs about Devm. Zero arguments, reversing whole situation in different way and talking in the way which favours your opinion. Even the situation with first bugsplat vs Talisman. Some guys say that Devm lost it and he did that on purpose, but game was clearly 50/50 and replaying that match was right decision.
Now the situation with second bugsplat. I think everyone is agree that replaying G4 would be much better option. So in G5 they did exactly like that and VonIvan lost game. So what is the problem here. Trying to make drama out of nothing is such a unique ability for this community. Also VonIvan could just agree with the fact that he lost G4 and chance given to him was such a good option. But no, better act like a victim instead of saying "gg wp".

It was rare for me too.

But with last video drivers unpdate it happens very often now. Like every 3-4-5 games.

Re-Install the driver that worked? Simply solution.

The rules state that either the players come to an agreement, or the referee does. The referee got to a conclusion: Hooligan said that according to the rules, Von had the game.

Then AE showed up and starting influencing the decision process with his opinions.

Unfortunately, Hool's first instinct that "based on the rules Von had the game" was not correct. Yes, he could have decided that way, but that would have been based on a non-existant rule and against the intention of the actual rules (granted, seems like everybody agrees that the rules are not ideal). Those would likely give the win to DevM;

Further, I don't know how they organized this. Hooligan was the ref, A_E might be the head ref. I do agree that this would not be an ideal construction; but even so: Hooligan was about to make a decision that would be based on him mixing up the rules from different tourneys; wouldn't you expect somebody to point that out to him?

very unfavorable terms or a loss.

Well, you do realize that the result of the process was better for Von than a rematch, right? Like, he basically got a rematch AND he won the game. If he would have pulled off the strategy in the "rematch" game, DevM would have been out of the tournament.

Granted, at the point when Von was asked to accept the conditions, he didn't know which map and faction DevM would chose, so it could have been worse (although never worse than a rule in favor of DevM). By picking the same map and factions, DevM basically set this up as rematch.

It seems like DevM himself was expecting to get a loss for that game (even though he naturally did not want to admit it given his way stronger position). I guess that would explain why he chose the same factions and map for G5 again. This way, his final victory would have less of a bad taste, since it's literally a repeat of G4.

But it's the decision that led to G5 that has to be criticised, and I guess the conclusion is to tighten the rules: You need to be able to produce evidence of the bugsplat. I would also remove the "Players should decide", because there is too much at stake. Both players (obviously, and who would blame them) did not want to admit defeat. Imo, the autmoatic lose once you get a bugsplat after 5 mins or so, is the simplest and best solution. Bugsplats are a real pain in the arse, but somehow there has to be a reliable rule to prevent all this drama from occuring again.

However, I understand AEs situation, I have been working in organising events, too, and those unforseen happenings are always a nightmare. No need to accuse him of bias or smth, but I think (constructive) criticism is needed to move forwards.

Look I am not attacking anyone personally, I just try to prove the point that the decisions made were very fishy and most likely came down to the player in case being DevM. I still stand by my point that if it were Barton in DevM's place, it would have been a totally different outcome.

This in no way or shape is an attack towards AE or DevM. Since it seems that some people think I am doing that lol. I have called DevM a cashgrabber before and I stand by my points then. Fortunately I also stated at that time that I don't know him as a person and don't judge him as a person, rather as a player based on his actions in CoH2.

Cheers.

Siphon x has this bang on. I accept all criticisms about the process and my decorum being less than ideal. But defend myself against bias and accusations of trying to mistreat vonivan. Thank you everyone for the improved conversation today good points all round. I am working on a solution involving helping Hans and Von that will make everyone happier.

There is no bigger fan of Von than I am but A-E has explained his actions and that's good enough.Finish the tourney on a higher note.

Meh, I think it's tainted now, and everyone has a bad taste in their mouth about it.

How can someone be awarded with such an advantage, after being given numerous warning to restart the game by the referee, and the request for restarts being so clearly defined in the rules?

DevM totally disregarded this, and ended up with a bugsplat, basically bringing the entire tournament into disrepute. He should have got the loss, and the onus should have been on VonIvan given he was leading on Veeps.

I have never before seen a bugsplat happen, then the play goes on for well over a minute, until the server registers it. Never.

Yes i mis understood the rules about the bugsplat and thats why i first said something else. I thought that the one bugsplatted would get the lose, but this wasnt what ae ment with the rule. My mistake and ae and i already talked about it. But in the end it doenst matter. You all werent there in the chat and nothing was ment hostile and no rules got bend into anyones favor and neither did my opinion changed during the conversation. I always said that von according to rules should get win bcs i thought that the rules were like that but i personally was in favor of giving devm the 3-1 bcs it was so freaking obvious he won that game. A_E came in and actually saved vonivan bcs i was on the point of saying devm won. A_E got back to the rules and pointed out his opinion and saved the day for von and kept to the rules.
My point is, from the beginning on and i said that a few times, A_E saved VonIvan. He didnt effect the decision in a bad way for von, but in a positive one. And when i look back at it now, i think this was the best decision or a replay. But the final decision was basically the same but with only more risk for devm. I support A_E and he did a very good job.
If anyone wants to be a ref for future tournaments send me a PM and you can give it a try and see how you do in difficult situations (im serious here, you can pm me if you want)

^ BS rules. Basically a get out of jail card for someone who can't, or won't listen to you asking for restarts, or the rules asking for restarts.

It was either lazy, or worse, arrogant on the part of DevM considering his "colourful past" in regard to bug splats.