Panthers need adjustment

Already had to nerf the comet when it had far less AT capability than a panther

The fuck? How exactly did it have a better at capability?

Ostheer Panther will never hit it on the move lol.

Glide shots. It's not that hard.

The fuck? How exactly did it have a better at capability?

Panther had a better chance to pen against most targets and also had less chance to be penned by allied at. It also has a bit more range now (which is apparently super OP when Jackson has more range than tanks but ok when it's the panther).

Glide shots. It's not that hard.

Panther had a better chance to pen against most targets and also had less chance to be penned by allied at. It also has a bit more range now (which is apparently super OP when Jackson has more range than tanks but ok when it's the panther).

The Jackson would be OP if buffed like in FBP because it would've had high mobility, range, pen, etc. The axis only have the JP4 and super heavies that go 60+.

The Jackson would be OP if buffed like in FBP because it would've had high mobility, range, pen, etc. The axis only have the JP4 and super heavies that go 60+.

Yeah but people bitch about live version jackson sometimes. IMO it's just bad original design to say, "here, you have 1 thing that can fight axis tanks effectively" and have to make it do everything in loads of different scenarios (which is why you get the fbp Jackson that'll probably never be implemented anyway).

Yeah but people bitch about live version jackson sometimes. IMO it's just bad original design to say, "here, you have 1 thing that can fight axis tanks effectively" and have to make it do everything in loads of different scenarios (which is why you get the fbp Jackson that'll probably never be implemented anyway).

If people complain about the live jackson they should see fireflys.

If people complain about the live jackson they should see fireflys.

Yeah lol. Jacksons are a bit cheaper and faster though, and usf having good things seems to offend some people XD

Panther had a better chance to pen against most targets and also had less chance to be penned by allied at

But a lower accuracy and moving accuracy, which balances out. It also had a much lower dps. The Panther has a very, very low at performance. It's there to soak up shots and be a tank, not a damage dealer.

"here, you have 1 thing that can fight axis tanks effectively"

Well sherman AP has the best pen of all standard mediums. Perhaps further refinement could help (losing more than .5 aoe over other standards)

It's my opinion that for the very high cost of Panthers, either their performance against infantry or their cost be adjusted. Currently, it's a hard-skinned (but not that hard, until vetted) tank destroyer that has a rotating turret.

Both versions are worthless against infantry. By the time they hit the field, you will have halfway to fully vetted infantry running around and probably several AT guns/AT infantry.

For the OKW version, it costs nearly as much as an Ost Tiger. It's only 30 more fuel for the Tiger. A commonly comparable unit, the Comet (which I think costs less) is great for AT/AI. Axis forces already have tank destroyer units. Why is the Panther a dedicated tank destroyer?

Because of it's high cost, I think the Panther should retain it's AT power but also give it a boost in AI ability similar to the Panzer 4. OR, give it an ability unlocked by veterancy or by using Munis that good against infantry.

this will help bring it in line with other late game non-doc tanks that cost a lot of resources.

Bro, you must be doing something very very wrong if you're struggling against infantry.

Played both factions, and even I see the Panther needs nerf, or a proper balance.

for USF, It takes 3 M10s, and 2 AT guns to even Pen a panther, Even against side armor.

If you're struggling with infantry you're not supporting your tanks properly, you should never let a tank go into a scenario alone.
As far as armor goes, From the most recent stats I could find (please, post a link for stats, cause im struggling to find the most up to date ones), The Panther armor is 10 LESS than a TIGER tank. And does EVERYTHING a tiger does and more.

I've seen so many squads, including elite inf, like rangers get one shot by a moving Panther.

So, The panther does not need to be cheaper, it is really good against infatry, especially with the MG mount, and is easily vetted and can out trade so many allied tanks, which isnt actually that Historically accurate. even the Sherman to Tiger ratio was about 4 Shermans to one Tiger, which was what the tank was built for.

I may sound salty, but you'd get pretty annoyed if 2 AT guns and 3 TDs were bouncing shots left right and center, off a tank.

Now lets talk about AT Grenades.

USF AT nades, at most will give engine crit at a ratio of about 40/60. Soviet nades, about at most, 60/40. Fausts, 95% of the time. But that is what they were made for, so that is completely to be expected.

Point in the matter, Panthers need a REAL balance, in line with being historically accurate. It is a myth it took 5 Shermans to one Panther.

As Coh2 Is based towards the end of the war, Tanks like the M4A3E8 Traded pretty evenly with Panther tanks. it was never a 5:1 ratio, Even the Tiger Tanks were about at most, 6:1 ratio.

To conclude, The Panther doesnt need a cost rescale, It needs a proper balance. Not a "drop the tank and win the game" balance. seems like im exaggerating, and you're probably thinking Just get AT.

Allies do, Allies have, every single shot pretty much bounces.
What do you do when the one thing AT is made for fails?

Bro, you must be doing something very very wrong if you're struggling against infantry.

Played both factions, and even I see the Panther needs nerf, or a proper balance.

for USF, It takes 3 M10s, and 2 AT guns to even Pen a panther, Even against side armor.

If you're struggling with infantry you're not supporting your tanks properly, you should never let a tank go into a scenario alone.
As far as armor goes, From the most recent stats I could find (please, post a link for stats, cause im struggling to find the most up to date ones), The Panther armor is 10 LESS than a TIGER tank. And does EVERYTHING a tiger does and more.

I've seen so many squads, including elite inf, like rangers get one shot by a moving Panther.

So, The panther does not need to be cheaper, it is really good against infatry, especially with the MG mount, and is easily vetted and can out trade so many allied tanks, which isnt actually that Historically accurate. even the Sherman to Tiger ratio was about 4 Shermans to one Tiger, which was what the tank was built for.

I may sound salty, but you'd get pretty annoyed if 2 AT guns and 3 TDs were bouncing shots left right and center, off a tank.

Now lets talk about AT Grenades.

USF AT nades, at most will give engine crit at a ratio of about 40/60. Soviet nades, about at most, 60/40. Fausts, 95% of the time. But that is what they were made for, so that is completely to be expected.

Point in the matter, Panthers need a REAL balance, in line with being historically accurate. It is a myth it took 5 Shermans to one Panther.

As Coh2 Is based towards the end of the war, Tanks like the M4A3E8 Traded pretty evenly with Panther tanks. it was never a 5:1 ratio, Even the Tiger Tanks were about at most, 6:1 ratio.

To conclude, The Panther doesnt need a cost rescale, It needs a proper balance. Not a "drop the tank and win the game" balance. seems like im exaggerating, and you're probably thinking Just get AT.

Allies do, Allies have, every single shot pretty much bounces.
What do you do when the one thing AT is made for fails?

And the award for talking out of your ass using made up bullshit goes tooooo......YOU!

But seriously looking at your mess of a comment i can conclude with almost certainty that you have no idea any statistics behind any of your claims. 5 forms of AT to pen? Its a dice roll...every...time... Much like a panthers chance to hit.
And a panther frequently wiping squads with the maingun? Yea ok there pal....

And the award for talking out of your ass using made up bullshit goes tooooo......YOU!

But seriously looking at your mess of a comment i can conclude with almost certainty that you have no idea any statistics behind any of your claims. 5 forms of AT to pen? Its a dice roll...every...time... Much like a panthers chance to hit.
And a panther frequently wiping squads with the maingun? Yea ok there pal....

No It literally happened, and continues to happen. even happens to the comet.

Not JUST that, but the M10 was bounced 3 times of a P4. A Panzer 4. Side Armor. This is fully legit, even with AP rounds. It happens.

I wouldnt be even responding if this hasnt happened on multiple occasions. Look up the armor stats if you dont believe me, the most recent one I could find was Panthers having 390 Armor and tigers having 400. You're more than welcome to attempt to debunk my apparent "talking out of my ass" But this has actually happened, both to me and 3 other friends. I await your results.

Overall, Yes panther bounces shots left and right, 1 in 5 shots penning is ACTUALLY a regular occurrence, especially when using M10s.

As for the M36, I havent had near as much luck. That being said though, from what ive seen and played, You rarely go in the M36. only with certain commanders (Rifle company, Recon support, Tactical, and maybe Paras.)

To the OP, If you are actually struggling With Infantry, You need to support your tanks with infantry/arty.

Again, 3 M10s, 6 Shots, (2 shots each) not a single Pen.

If you can find me some updated charts on the armor values of all tanks, I will happily look at them, as there are lots of other things i am curious about.

if u fight panther on max range...and wonder what he bounce..so yeah...you failed..

for more health, stealth and a 150% damage bonus on first strike - all thanks to veterancy, yes

Don't forget to remove munition caches too. After all that's why OKW is allowed 5 levels of vet you will often never reach.

Dont forget the 60%~ armour increase as well.

You mean the 10% increase? How do you even get that far off.

But sure it does get some duribility, but it doesn't get any bonus pen and accuracy until vet 4-5

No It literally happened, and continues to happen. even happens to the comet.

Not JUST that, but the M10 was bounced 3 times of a P4. A Panzer 4. Side Armor. This is fully legit, even with AP rounds. It happens.

I wouldnt be even responding if this hasnt happened on multiple occasions. Look up the armor stats if you dont believe me, the most recent one I could find was Panthers having 390 Armor and tigers having 400. You're more than welcome to attempt to debunk my apparent "talking out of my ass" But this has actually happened, both to me and 3 other friends. I await your results.

Overall, Yes panther bounces shots left and right, 1 in 5 shots penning is ACTUALLY a regular occurrence, especially when using M10s.

As for the M36, I havent had near as much luck. That being said though, from what ive seen and played, You rarely go in the M36. only with certain commanders (Rifle company, Recon support, Tactical, and maybe Paras.)

To the OP, If you are actually struggling With Infantry, You need to support your tanks with infantry/arty.

Again, 3 M10s, 6 Shots, (2 shots each) not a single Pen.

If you can find me some updated charts on the armor values of all tanks, I will happily look at them, as there are lots of other things i am curious about.

Why are you under the assumption that the m10 is supposed to have good penitration?

Glide shots. It's not that hard.

Do you actually use the Ostheer Panther? I don't think you do lol.

M10 is the ideal concept of a flanking TD. it is really fast, fast reload, turrent, is cheap....

come from side with two M10 and flank the enemy...he will turn around and now go in with all others...
or come from front with all other and flank with m10...

You mean the 10% increase? How do you even get that far off.

But sure it does get some duribility, but it doesn't get any bonus pen and accuracy until vet 4-5

Compared amour of su85 and jp4. 60% extra armour (roughly)

Bro, you must be doing something very very wrong if you're struggling against infantry.

Played both factions, and even I see the Panther needs nerf, or a proper balance.

for USF, It takes 3 M10s, and 2 AT guns to even Pen a panther, Even against side armor.

If you're struggling with infantry you're not supporting your tanks properly, you should never let a tank go into a scenario alone.
As far as armor goes, From the most recent stats I could find (please, post a link for stats, cause im struggling to find the most up to date ones), The Panther armor is 10 LESS than a TIGER tank. And does EVERYTHING a tiger does and more.

I've seen so many squads, including elite inf, like rangers get one shot by a moving Panther.

So, The panther does not need to be cheaper, it is really good against infatry, especially with the MG mount, and is easily vetted and can out trade so many allied tanks, which isnt actually that Historically accurate. even the Sherman to Tiger ratio was about 4 Shermans to one Tiger, which was what the tank was built for.

I may sound salty, but you'd get pretty annoyed if 2 AT guns and 3 TDs were bouncing shots left right and center, off a tank.

Now lets talk about AT Grenades.

USF AT nades, at most will give engine crit at a ratio of about 40/60. Soviet nades, about at most, 60/40. Fausts, 95% of the time. But that is what they were made for, so that is completely to be expected.

Point in the matter, Panthers need a REAL balance, in line with being historically accurate. It is a myth it took 5 Shermans to one Panther.

As Coh2 Is based towards the end of the war, Tanks like the M4A3E8 Traded pretty evenly with Panther tanks. it was never a 5:1 ratio, Even the Tiger Tanks were about at most, 6:1 ratio.

To conclude, The Panther doesnt need a cost rescale, It needs a proper balance. Not a "drop the tank and win the game" balance. seems like im exaggerating, and you're probably thinking Just get AT.

Allies do, Allies have, every single shot pretty much bounces.
What do you do when the one thing AT is made for fails?

I know you had a newer post, but I found this one better to reply to.
The panther (320) has 20 more armor than the tiger (300).
Panther armor: http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=panther_squad_mp
Tiger armor: http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=tiger_squad_mp

So yes, your armor values for the panther and tiger are made up/outdated.

Also, you do realize that side armor is not a thing in coh2, right? As in it doesn't exist - end of story.

What's more, if you're not already aware, the game is not and should not be balanced around what was "historically accurate."

Also, why say: "I've seen so many squads, including elite inf, like rangers get one shot by a moving Panther." Elite infantry dies just as easily against tanks/mortars/explosions as every other infantry in the game, ignoring difference in model count (target size is essentially negligible as a factor because of the low chances of a natural hit). The fact that you imply elite infantry is more durable against tanks makes me think you don't even know the mechanics behind how vehicle/AT weapons function against infantry. Your claim about panthers being "really good against infantry," is subjective, but I think players would overwhelmingly agree that the panther is lackluster (but serviceable) against infantry.

Claiming the panther is easy to vet is...questionable. High vet requirements, and low dps mean that the panther is slow, and somewhat difficult to vet.

Anyway, since you wanted confirmation: Yes, you are blatantly talking out of your ass and have no idea what you're talking about. Being absolutely clueless about how this game and how units work is fine, but I think many people would appreciate it such people didn't dilute balance discussions with "historical accuracy," "one time, X happened to me, so Y unit is obviously overpowered," and if they didnt completely make up unit stats/mechanics out of nowhere, then dogmatically defend their completely arbitrary claims once people respond with the actual units stats that disprove their made up arguments.

Wow this thread has further devolved. No wonder, but still.

Just want to point out that mons7erz is obviously very new to the game and doesn't fully understand a lot of its nuances. Not intended as an insult, just a statement of fact. So either help him out, or just ignore him.

(That was not directed towards quoted post).

Do you actually use the Ostheer Panther? I don't think you do lol.

I do and I make sure I stop before I shoot just like I do with most tanks (especially EFA). It's not like the panther has a hard time stopping (and even if it did it wouldn't matter because as soon as you hit "s" the penalties are removed) and you don't even have to flank 99% of the time so it's not like you have to dive tanks in the traditional sense. The marginally better range helps too. I'd be fine with buffs to the OST panther (nothing crazy, just maybe increased base accuracy and lower reload or 200 dmg).

Another point to consider is that in situations where you might lose one or even two mediums, a panther might escape with a sliver of health left. That means you don't have to buy a new tank and you keep your vet. So that at least challenges the "not cost efficient enough" argument.