[1v1] Struggling as Soviets

Hello,

Trying to get back into the game after a six month hiatus and I'm really struggling playing as the Soviets. This is my third loss in a row and everything felt out of wack, an early micro mistake with my Scout Car, I didn't know where to fight/I was out maneuvered on the flanks, my build order left me with the wrong counters, and then once I felt I got a handle on the game I find myself facing 3 Stug-E's and a ridiculous PaK wall which rolled over my army with an A-Move and I'm left feeling very frustrated.

I've tried Maxim openings prior to this, this was my first attempt in a while at T1 and I feel the Strafniki matched well against Assault Grenadiers, so I don't necessarily feel that was where I lost. The only thing left to try is the ol' 4 Script into Medics. Regardless, I would be grateful for some advice on what a "standard" Soviet army composition looks like these days, since I think a large part of my struggles is getting bogged down around 7-9 minutes when I've either just got a T70 or Su76 out, and I'm really struggling moving into the late game, one T34/85 and this thread doesn't exist.

I also recognize Kholdny East is also a very difficult fight, so some advice with veto's would also be really appreciated.

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  turbotortoise #bringthebump

  [1v1] PaK Wall + Stug E

  by: turbotortoise map: Kholodny Ferma

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Will take a look at this. Thoughts posted shortly.

Things you did well:

1. Army composition: Was well rounded. Infantry, engineers with sweepers, elite infantry, mortars, MGs when you stole them and AT guns here and there when stolen or made.

2. Meta selection: Guard motor is probably the strongest and most used soviet meta commander in the current patch. Good choice.

Things to improve on/things requested:

1. "Standard" or "meta" soviet openings generally involve going T1 into penals -> possible scout car -> guard motor -> guards -> HM-120 -> T70 -> T34/85 spam. So you had the right idea I'd say but you didn't really utilize it to the best ability. What I mean by this is there were crucial but easily fixable mistakes you made that lead you to being at a disadvantage for large portions of the game. 1st big mistake was getting a conscript squad. While getting a conscript squad is not bad in the slightest when used for their utility of merge and AT nades, I saw neither. AT nades were not even teched. This could have been another penal squad which would have helped apply stronger pressure in the AI department. 2nd major mistake was floating of resources. Your HM-120 squad did not come as early as it could have even though you had knowledge of both MG42s. This just allowed for a widening of a resource and VP gap as those resources could have been spent instead just sat in the bank. Lastly you only ever had 1 guard squad at a time. For most of the midgame you floated around 300-400 manpower at any one time and could have made this another guard squad. Guard are extremely powerful at the moment and it would have aided in both AI and AT when the StuG Es came out.

2. Early armor selection: SU-76 was a bit earlier than warrented. You were just below 5 CPs and StuG Es come at 7. Not nearly close enough to be calling in an SU-76 which could've been a faster T70 to help wipe lone squads. Although you did make use of it with barrage and wiped his last MG42 squad with it, you cannot rely on your opponets missmicros and lack of attentiveness to warrent bad decisions if you wish to improve.

3. Munitions: I did not see a single mine, demo, target weak point with the stolen vet 1 pak, or button, or mark target. All of these are very powerful and should be utilized when the opportunity presents itself. Yes I understand you were having trouble holding munitions and upgrading DP28s but even in the lategame these were unused. If you see he has double pioneers with flamers and no sweeper this is a green light for demos. Punish his lack of sweeper and make him regret it. Games are won on the back of single demo charges and mines. There was a point where you had the Tiger infront of a SU-76 and Pak40 when you could've used TWP but did not use it and let him get out.

4. Territory prioritization: When your opponet takes your cutoff your priority should be either punishing his cutoff or taking yours back. Capturing futher point on the cutoff side does nothing. Since his cutoff was fairly well defended early game by double MG42s in their respective garrisons taking your cutoff should be the highest priority. Even in late game I saw you were not on the fastest move to reclaiming it. This strengthed the fuel gap between you and your opponet. Also look at who you're capping distant points with, at one point in the match you lost your cutoff to a couple squads and couldn't take it back because 1 of your 2 penal squads was off capping the uppermost point on the map. Penals are meant for fighting as an anti infantry squad and you should be taking engagements if it's required of them and let your engineers do the capping. Also this means your capping squad will have a sweeper should they run into mines.

5. Yes right side Kholodney is tough on the VPs. Quite unfortunate.

6. Personally I'd avoid the M3 scout car against Ostheer and save it for OKW. Ostheer has the access to very early fausts as well as the eventual 222 which will come against high level players. That manpower and fuel could've been spend else where like on another penal squad or guard squad which I've mentioned above. Also when you built it, it hadn't been revealed that he had gone mechanized. Had this not been the case you could've been fausted quickly.

7. Commander selection early: If you do not gain anything immediatly from selecting a commander you're doing it wrong. The only thing you do from selecting a commander early and gain nothing is hurt your possible selection of another commander later. You gained nothing at 0 CPs with guard motor, at least wait till 2 CPs when you can call in guards or HM-120s. I didn't see your other commanders as I didn't look fast enough but if you had a shock trooper commander in there those trade fairly well against assualt grenadiers once they're revealed. However you said your penals traded alright with the assualt grenadiers, which I say is true as well.

8. Watch your opponets movements and use map awareness to make coordinated decisions. You seemed very hesitant after you got pushed into your base and didn't want to move out at all. Have to move out eventually so once you had everything reinforced get going. Infantry and sweepers followed by support teams and armor. Use vision capabilites if you have them. HM-120s have the flare at vet 1. Knowledge of your opponets position and movements is priceless. At one point you had a lone penal squad lategame capping your opponets fuel at top and your opponet rotated both a new StuG E which revealed itself AND the tiger. This is green light to move everything up the mid because both his tanks were not there. You were still hesistant at this point when moving up.

Overall: Your micro was pretty good aside from the scout car misshap. Your background knowledge of the meta was also well enough but suffered in some areas, particularly the resource floating department. Punish your opponets for missplays by using TWP, button or demos, this leads to great advantages. Wait till you gain a benefit from commanders. Your cutoff is the one of the most important points in the game and should be a major priority at all points of the game. Lastly map awareness. Gaining vision of your opponet and exploiting his weaknesses is the strongest ability in the game.

Hope this helped. Feel free to ask any question or comments or concerns should you have them.

Can watch it if needed, just tag me

..................

Has nothing to do with the subject of this thred itself but I feel that ShadowLinkX37 deserves becoming strategist, maybe even Senior Strategist of this site..

Whenever I see people asking for advice, it's almost everytime him, trying to support with very detailed analysis

In this current balance state, SOVIET is very easy to win with.

Didn't watch replay because i uninstalled coh2 but just read this:

Penals beat grens/volks at every range.
Penals in scout car -> very easy early wipe, especially against okw

maxim is also very good, don't forget to use A-moove that's all you need.


After winning early phase, you rush a T70 (considered by everyone as OP) and keep wiping ennemy squad.


If you fucked up in early game and let your ennemy get fuel, you might see a 222 or sometimes a luchs/puma -> Use AT partysan or guards.
Then again, rush T-70.


Finally, in 1v1 you won't need T4 because you got everything you need in T3, just make a few SU-76 (again, they are OP with guards ability to stun ennemy vehicle).

If you really need AT, then just go ZIS AT GUN.


With these few meta tricks, you will easily reach top 100 with soviet.

hardest part will be to find people still playing coh2 but it's none of my business

Turbo is this feedback enaught for you ? Can I close this one ?

Also please give me your feelings on Shadows review of your replay. I really want to hear how much he helped you, how good his review was and so on (for research purposes ofc )

Can watch it if needed, just tag me

great ppost

Has nothing to do with the subject of this thred itself but I feel that ShadowLinkX37 deserves becoming strategist, maybe even Senior Strategist of this site..

Whenever I see people asking for advice, it's almost everytime him, trying to support with very detailed analysis

It's hard to respond to such a complement with many words, but many thanks for saying this. It made my day.

imo topics like that. Not this one but like that in general even if made by me or by solid player are complete waste. Since you cant tell anyone what he did wrong.
I sometimes read chess forums there are topics "what I did wrong" made by very low ranked players ussualy.
You cant tell what was done wrong except "everithing". Only can say what is right to do and that is in books. In rts there is no books no pro community to learn from. That why rts is flawed at this pointn as a competitive genre

imo

It won't stop us from trying.
If we want to improve or change things, we have to make a mindful effort.
Perhaps our opines regarding the state of competition/life would be better suited in the scrapyard.

Turbo is this feedback enaught for you ? Can I close this one ?

Sorry Hector. I'd like to open this up a bit more in depth, perhaps moving it to the Strategy section is warranted, if we can do that.

ps: PM inbound

In this current balance state, SOVIET is very easy to win with.

Didn't watch replay because i uninstalled coh2 but just read this:

Taken under advisement, particularly the use of Partisans. If you had the watched the game however; you would have found that T3 or at least my use of it was inadequate. I would just respond that speaking in generalities as you are is often dangerous and unproductive.

valuable feedback

Allow me to respond quickly in no particular order, my insta-pick of commander was based on a myth that picking early allowed CP's to accrue quicker, and the strategy in the first place was for the Guards PTRS to supplement T1's lack of AT. Otherwise I usually take your advice under advisement and hold off until I'm sure a certain unit/ability will help me. With that said, perhaps an IS2 bails me out as well.

I had intended for the 'script squad to act as insurance in the case of a FlameHT or teching ATNades if I ever had a fuel surplus. Perhaps instead I will consider forgoing it and utilize Guards, or as you say, double down in the early game and apply stronger pressure. Maybe in conjunction with an 120mm I could have controlled or contested the center VP better, and that would have made the late game transition simpler, not having to fight as hard for my cutoff.

I'm curious though about your advice of an additional squad. I was maintaining 4 able combat sections, two support weapons and an ATG, any more and I was worried that bleed was going to hinder my ability to tech. Granted in this game I never reached that nadir because I lost my cutoff. I guess it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, make your army more efficient by adding troops, sustain less losses, ergo bleed isn't an issue, but having the resources availible was my concern. I'll consider getting an extra squad in the future, applying more pressure and see how it goes.

Thank you for the tip regarding matching my CP count with his to predict call in units. I hadn't even considered doing that before. In truth my choice of Su76 was a panic after realizing I had gifted my opponent around ~9 minutes of uninterrupted fuel income. I was concerned about a PiV appearing and did not want to be caught out, when it didn't materialize and instead three StuG E's arrived, the T70 was the real mistake. I had again forgot entirely about StuG E's, I actually thought I may have had a small window to try and rout/wipe some harassing squads with a roaming T70.

I also agree partially with your criticism of my munitions use. Each of the abilities you mentioned provide a lot of equity but a myriad of problems arouse. First, I had found I exhausted most of my meager income from flamethrowers, grenades and DP28's, secondly with the possible exception of the fuel/hedgerows I didn't see many opportunities where I wasn't spread out to actually plant any mines/demos, which speaks to an issue I'll bring up later, but thirdly I also did not have the attention for them. They slipped my mind and that's a failing of my cognition. Things like the Vet1 flare would have really helped but I was already playing to my APM/thought limits, I couldn't also use the abilities, that will be something I will obviously really have to work on if I want to crack >150. I'll especially take into advisement the observation that both Pio squads had Flamers, that's something I did not even consider, and good advice when looking to exploit opponents oversights/weakness

ps. did they change TWP from the first shell firing being an 100% pen/stun/turret disable to targeted ability, I seem to recall hitting the hotkey many times, but also moving off/doing something else thinking it was fire and forget. If it didn't pop, that's on me.

Your final points, 4+8 are really what I want to talk about though.

Regarding my cutoff, choosing to attack the flanks instead of going for my cutoff was a conscious tactical decision given my strategic situation. I was hesitant to go after it simply because I thought, and I think rightfully so, that sending troops up the middle was not achieving anything, only sending them to their doom against multiple StuG E's. Your advice is to advance, but I really didn't see how to do so effectively in that moment, and upon reflection it still alludes me.

So my question is: did a poor strategy hinder my tactical options. Ie did midgame float cost me this game? I covered earlier, I'm cautious about spending too much manpower due to bleed, but I'll take it under consideration 'cos if it helps me stay on the field, perhaps that really helps me out giving me the resources to transition properly.

Regardless I'm a little confused. I don't know if strategic mistakes had led me up to that point where I couldn't win, IE misspending fuel and not having enough field presence to maintain fuel so I couldn't get a T34/85, if that's the case I can accept that and suggest we focus on where I went wrong in the midgame, but I honestly feel it was pretty even up to that point, after all your first point was that I had a solid army compisition.

So I'm confused, did I misuse my army was it a failure in tactics? If so, how; OR was my overall strategy flawed hamstringing my army?

snip

I'll try and answer the questions you stated in order.

TWP currently in live is a 6 second duration ability that applies a stun to the target as well as 100% of the shell damage if it penetrates. The shell must be fired within the 6 seconds to apply the stun and doesn't apply if it bounces. So no it is not currently a targeted ability. In the few instances of me watching your pak40 specifically the opportunity I mentioned where the tiger was infront of it the command was not given to the pak.

I understand your decision to move for the flanks. The cutoff for the east is semi near mid though, and it must be defended if you wish to attach the south. I agree with you that your move to the flanks was acceptable but on your cutoff as the east is where you need to be setup inorder to hold the south.

It could be argued that your midgame float DID cost you the game, however it is not entirely that single point that cost you this. You had a single guard squad which was the largest problem for me. Guards are both AI and light AT as well as AT disable. Having 2 guards is exponentially better than having 1. I.e. Double AT guns can destroy a stock medium tank in 2 bursts where a single AT gun takes 4 bursts, even though it is only 1 less AT gun. 1*1=2 2*2=4 etc. Ask me to clarify this if this doesn't make sense.

The other part of the reason that I now know that you were lacking knowledge of mechanized assualt. Being unprepared for the StuG E spam when your opponet has not been cut off plus the fact you were cutoff multiple times in the early game led to a significant alpha damage spike on your army. An amount that was not immediatly dealt which led to squad wipes, bleed and eventual loss. The same problem with your earlier guards was then applied to your AT gun situation. You side teched for a zis as it was mandatory however bled so much you only had 1 and because the outgoing damage could not overcome 3 StuG Es even in direct fire of the zis, you just lost your zis gun. It should also be noted that you lost your 1st SU-76 because you brought it into combat against StuG Es and pak40s when only at 3/4 HP.

I feel different about your early game than you do. You were cut off multiple times where he was not, this led to a disadvantage on your part. However, just prior to the StuG Es coming out you managed to get multiple squad wipes in quick succession. I believe it was 4 or 5 and it was a massive momentum swing. Had you known of the coming StuG Es I believe this is where you would've turned the match. Preping for the StuG Es with another SU-76 or side tech for zis guns.

As for army composition, yes it was well rounded but it lacked quantity of the quality. Meaning that while guard selection was a fantastic choice, only having 1 instead of 2 hurt your overall performance. Apologies for not making that more clear.

As stated above, this loss was more due to lack of knowledge of mechanized as well as quantity of squads in comparison to your opponet. Meaning that while yes a guard squad can deter a single StuG E from a garrison, a single guard squad will not deter 3 of them. This combined with other more minor flaws such as squad preservation, the loss of your squad car instantly and the 1st SU-76 put you far enough back recovery became extremely difficult.

Also note that this is the strongest ostheer strategy arguably for this exact reason. Overruning your opponet mid game with mass StuG Es into Tiger. You were at a slight disadvantage fuel wise due to the fact you had to tech.

1. I would watch if i had game. But this faction is not easy to play, maybe try something else. I would wait till wbp at least. Lacking 1 full squad in the opening and expensive unit unlock is too much though understandable to some extent.

2. I can give you my script that cap points while setting 2 flares on it also attack move is used to move between points. But that effects only mid late game.

And if there is 222s into stuges into tiger. Better give up. There is probably nothing more abusive than this one. T1 T3 things are utterly worthless against it.
T2 into mediums skiping t70 is slightly better

Sorry Hector. I'd like to open this up a bit more in depth, perhaps moving it to the Strategy section is warranted, if we can do that.

ps: PM inbound

I can send you "strategist" to review this one for you and give you more in depth feedback, moving to other part of state office I cannot do. Sry

Taken under advisement, particularly the use of Partisans. If you had the watched the game however; you would have found that T3 or at least my use of it was inadequate. I would just respond that speaking in generalities as you are is often dangerous and unproductive.

allright,
so i get a 7 days ban when on another topic i noticed that the guy giving advice was not even top 300 but here this guy say that i am "dangerous" and "unproductive" and goes away with it ?

For obvious reason, i won't say anything directly on you and your skill but you should consider more my advise.

allright,
so i get a 7 days ban when on another topic i noticed that the guy giving advice was not even top 300 but here this guy say that i am "dangerous" and "unproductive" and goes away with it ?

For obvious reason, i won't say anything directly on you and your skill but you should consider more my advise.

Rank means little in a game with few players and unbalanced factions/maps. Higher rank players have good strategy as well as top tier micro. Just because someone isn't in the top 50 doesn't mean their knowledge is any less acceptable as long as it is good and "correct" advice.

Rank means little in a game with few players and unbalanced factions/maps. Higher rank players have good strategy as well as top tier micro. Just because someone isn't in the top 50 doesn't mean their knowledge is any less acceptable as long as it is good and "correct" advice.

Also once you get past some fictive border in terms of skill, your rank will only mean how much you grind it. For example I could be top 10, but I´m not because I help community at cost of losing "top" rank

Rank means little in a game with few players and unbalanced factions/maps. Higher rank players have good strategy as well as top tier micro. Just because someone isn't in the top 50 doesn't mean their knowledge is any less acceptable as long as it is good and "correct" advice.

did i say that rank means something in my previous post ?

but still very glad to hear your point of view on coh2 ranks.

thank you