OKW vs USF (how do I beat the ridiculous USF?)

Greetings, I'm mainly a 1v1 player and I play in the lower mid brackets (fluctuating between lvl 9 and 10+). My playstyle is mostly aggressive early capping, focusing on denying my opponent resources and maximising my resource gain for early tech advantages. My standard build order is Kubel-Volks-Volks-battlegroup (ISG+MG) into earliest possible Luchs or Puma.


So far, my win rate against USF is about 25%, 80+% against British and 60+% against Soviets. I struggle sometimes with Penals into t70 but USF really takes (robs the cake).


Here's the list of problems I face against USF

1) 0 cp military truck (DOES ANYONE NOT REALISE HOW RIDICULOUSLY OP THIS THING IS???!!!) - too fast and mobile for a raketenwerfer to take out (which also tends to miss at mid range against moving units) OKW don't get panzerfausts until Battlegroup hq is done, and even then it's easy to stay out of panzerfaust range, or just simply kill 3/4 of the squad while panzerfaust is loading. It's an early game nightmare that bleeds MP like crazy and leads to the opponent having a lot more resources than he normally would. It also has the most nonsensical chase-down ability - it's basically a 0 CP call-in scout car with upgraded armour that is built as the third unit of the game, and you can put a rifle squad inside to wipe any squad retreating even with 3 soldiers.

2) Rifle blob with mortar support - Seems to be the best individual infantry unit from T0, and even when I win early engagements the mid-game 3 rifle blobs with Lieutenant gives the USF a lot more infantry units out on the field then I do. I struggle in the mid-game and normally Panzer 2 is the only way I can turn the tide.

Late game rifles are also the best standard infantry with dual LMGs - 2 or 3 star Obersoldaten squads or 5 star Volks squads can't hold their own against rifle squads 1 for 1.

The ISG is awesome but USF mortars are T0, which means USF can house-rush without getting punished. Overall their mortars are just better because they're cheaper and never get killed or captured because they can easily retreat.

3) Engineers with bazookas vs OKW handheld anti-tank - Sturmpioneers need 90 munitions for a single panzershrek, terribly cost-inefficient. USF can make cheap, mobile, infantry-based anti-tank with Rear Echelon troops and dual bazookas, which effectively shuts down light vehicle play and helps a lot later on against OKW tanks. Wehrmacht also pays 120 munitions for 2 anti-tank weapons, but they give up valuable anti-infantry firepower to do so. Cheap and easy access to infantry-held anti-tank weapons gives USF a big advantage compared to all 4 factions.

4) USF vehicle crews - USF vehicle crews are always two units in one. Mobile repair, can capture points....This is beyond ridiculous.

5) Stuart - nonsensical skill that causes enemy vehicles to lose mobility. Ensures the Stuart can't be chased down by a Puma, or even better, ensures the enemy light tank gets killed by your bazooka wielding infantry. Incredibly mobile and accurate on the move, great dps against infantry, beats the Panzer 2 in a firefight easily but is fast enough to chase it down.

6) Pershing - 3 models dropped per shot. It doesn't have the health or anti-tank damage of a Jagdtiger but it's reasonably mobile for a heavy tank, which allows it to escape easily, and with decent mobility, range, and firepower, it's the most well-rounded heavy tank. Its anti-infantry shots allow it to gain Veterancy at a ridiculous clip, because it gets 3 models on a single squad reliably. The Panther/Konigstiger usually get 1 guy, sometimes 2. Worst part is that the Pershing is not expensive, and coupled with the 120? fuel you save from the Major, it can turn the tide of a losing battle easily. It's a common situation where I hold my fuel and more strat points, while constantly disrupting or seizing his fuel, but I haven't really crippled him. He holds out long enough for more LMGs/bazookas on his squads and calls in a Pershing by skipping Major to reverse the situation.

Panther needs 300mp and 135 fuel for the HQ, before you spend another 490mp and 200fuel to get the Panther
It's very painful for OKW that teching to P4/Panther costs as much or more than a Jagdtiger. Having such poor access to medium tanks often means you have to rely on Puma and anti-tank guns against the dreaded USF mortars (since you don't even have proper handheld anti-tank) and will struggle to close out games in which you've been doing well in terms of map control and resource games.

The oldest phrases from all will be used.

"Replay pls"

I myself think okw doesn´t have problem with USA, actually its the USA which is lacking more against OKW than OST, both factions have thier gimmicks and you must utilise your at best. Thats why I want a replay from you, so I (and other strategists) can see where directly you are making mistakes, so we can directly help you instaed of just theorycrafting here about nothing

Interesting for me would be to hear about the clear advantages OKW has against USF? What are they exactly?

The oldest phrases from all will be used.

"Replay pls"

I myself think okw doesn´t have problem with USA, actually its the USA which is lacking more against OKW than OST, both factions have thier gimmicks and you must utilise your at best. Thats why I want a replay from you, so I (and other strategists) can see where directly you are making mistakes, so we can directly help you instaed of just theorycrafting here about nothing

Okay, will go and play some games and make some fresh replays.

Okay, will go and play some games and make some fresh replays.

Do not forget to post them also here as well, our strategists only have to review what is in replay review section, they don´t browse replay section, at least not commonly.

Anyway welcome to coh2.org, I´m very happy that you joined our forum and want to improve. Here are many helpful people who wants to help you so do not worry, and if you find some forum troll that will insult you, do not worry to report him or call me, order will be made.

Cheers

Interesting for me would be to hear about the clear advantages OKW has against USF? What are they exactly?

Early game kubelwagon allows you to cap your side of map or half of map on most maps, because it can defeat echelons in 1v1 fight.

Early game you have more fighting squads because you begin with sturmpios and USF begins with echelons so you can be more agressive.

Mid game volks will outfight riflemens thanks to stg upgrade that gives them edge (except lmg rifles that will get nerfed next patch).

Luchs is better than stuart as long as you support him because he is wiping maching or you can go battlegruppe and secure more ground by forward HQ.

Lategame you get free territory lockdown, obers that beat rifles p4 that is best medium tank (except OP cromwell) and you can also call in formidable jp4 or kindtiger.

Commaders are also great, for example specal ops give you panther with mark target - defeats any medium in 3 shots with mark, scavenge gives you JLI - infantry that snipe models below 70% of health and oswind so you can sit on mechanized - puma + luchs into oswind. Both give you infiltration grenades - for 15 munnition they nuke houses and force riflemens to reposition.

Lategame USA is almost doomed if you get kingtiger and jp4/2 rakettens

Early game kubelwagon allows you to cap your side of map or half of map on most maps, because it can defeat echelons in 1v1 fight.

Early game you have more fighting squads because you begin with sturmpios and USF begins with echelons so you can be more agressive.

Mid game volks will outfight riflemens thanks to stg upgrade that gives them edge (except lmg rifles that will get nerfed next patch).

Luchs is better than stuart as long as you support him because he is wiping maching or you can go battlegruppe and secure more ground by forward HQ.

Lategame you get free territory lockdown, obers that beat rifles p4 that is best medium tank (except OP cromwell) and you can also call in formidable jp4 or kindtiger.

Commaders are also great, for example specal ops give you panther with mark target - defeats any medium in 3 shots with mark, scavenge gives you JLI - infantry that snipe models below 70% of health and oswind so you can sit on mechanized - puma + luchs into oswind. Both give you infiltration grenades - for 15 munnition they nuke houses and force riflemens to reposition.

Lategame USA is almost doomed if you get kingtiger and jp4/2 rakettens

Kübelwagen can´t beat RE. Not even a close fight.

Volksgrenadiere never outfight Riflemen. They might win with STG against unequipped Riflemen but who plays with unequipped Riflemen mid-game? I don´t know why people really overrate Volksgrenadiere so much. Even Vet 5 Volksgrenadiere lose to Vet 3 Riflemen since Riflemen get better vet bonusses. Un-equipped VOlks and Riflemen fight -> Riflemen win. Equipped Volks and Riflemen fight-> Riflemen win. Only at max range Volks have a 50/50 chance. Any other range and Riflemen dominate them.

I can show you that with cheat mode if you don´t believe it.

Jäger Infantry does OK but is super expensive to re-inforce (37mp).

You may have 1 more squad (if you don´t get Kübelwagen) but that´s worth very little since USF doesn´t need to fight one Volksgrenadier squad with two Riflemen squads.

Obersoldaten suck in most close games because of two reasons: 1. They need to fight vetted Riflemen. 2. They are super expensive and prone to get wiped by in-direct fire, basically glass cannons.

Nothing you said is a clear advantage for OKW other than being able to cap quicker early game.

My opinion still stands USF>OKW. Maybe that is also the reason I see OKW so rarely in competitive games.

Kübelwagen can´t beat RE. Not even a close fight.

Volksgrenadiere never outfight Riflemen. They might win with STG against unequipped Riflemen but who plays with unequipped Riflemen mid-game? I don´t know why people really overrate Volksgrenadiere so much. Even Vet 5 Volksgrenadiere lose to Vet 3 Riflemen since Riflemen get better vet bonusses. Un-equipped VOlks and Riflemen fight -> Riflemen win. Equipped Volks and Riflemen fight-> Riflemen win. Only at max range Volks have a 50/50 chance. Any other range and Riflemen dominate them.

I can show you that with cheat mode if you don´t believe it.

Jäger Infantry does OK but is super expensive to re-inforce (37mp).

You may have 1 more squad (if you don´t get Kübelwagen) but that´s worth very little since USF doesn´t need to fight one Volksgrenadier squad with two Riflemen squads.

Obersoldaten suck in most close games because of two reasons: 1. They need to fight vetted Riflemen. 2. They are super expensive and prone to get wiped by in-direct fire, basically glass cannons.

Nothing you said is a clear advantage for OKW other than being able to cap quicker early game.

My opinion still stands USF>OKW. Maybe that is also the reason I see OKW so rarely in competitive games.

Kubel defeats even rifles at long range, providing rifles don´t have cover, same apply to echelons.

Volks beat rifles early game at long range, also stg is aptoinable than bars early one,

Jaegers are snipers, you have to put them behind main line infantry - volks and they will snipe models like mad,

3 volks and sturmpios will defeat 3 rifles and echelon in open fight if you cleverly use cover and range

Obersoldatens suck if you build them lategame but if you rush flakHQ and get 2 obersoldats and vet them, they will be crazy.

OKW isn´t played because how hard they get beated by current soviets and UKF lategame, these both factions are most played because they are strongest, USA is currently weakest amond all allied factions (oh the irony)

Kubel defeats even rifles at long range, providing rifles don´t have cover, same apply to echelons.

Volks beat rifles early game at long range, also stg is aptoinable than bars early one,

Jaegers are snipers, you have to put them behind main line infantry - volks and they will snipe models like mad,

3 volks and sturmpios will defeat 3 rifles and echelon in open fight if you cleverly use cover and range

Obersoldatens suck if you build them lategame but if you rush flakHQ and get 2 obersoldats and vet them, they will be crazy.

OKW isn´t played because how hard they get beated by current soviets and UKF lategame, these both factions are most played because they are strongest, USA is currently weakest amond all allied factions (oh the irony)

I don´t know why people keep saying that Volksgrenadiere beat Riflemen in long-range fights. They don´t. It´s 50/50. I already tested it with fair condition in cheat mode. I already uploaded the result as a replay on this site too.

Who fights Kübelwagen without cover? Kübel might be able to beat RE when RE is in red cover, same for riflemen. But under normal conditions Kübel loses.

You are trying to say that 3 Volks and 1 SP will beat 3 Riflemen and 1 RE if "you cleverly use cover and range" but what you aren´t saying is that if the enemy is "cleverly using cover and range" too they get beaten 9 times out of 10. Basically what you are saying is that if you outplay your opponent with OKW Volksgrenadiere you will win but if you don´t and lets say two players play equally well you lose.

Regarding Jäger light infantry they are decent as I said but how often they are used in competetive games against USF tells you a lot about how useful they are. They are nice since they can spawn in buildings so they can interrupt your opponent but if you get more than 2 squads of Jäger Infanty the MP cost to maintain them will totally kill you. They are not a viable source for massive AI damage and are also very fragile due to their 4 man design.

I will not change your mind, there is no need to continue in this argument

A) Hector has right! Kübelwagen is great vs USA. Even when you have units in yellow cover. Also when you have a volks, or Sturmpio near it, you can drive with your kübel in the enemies, so you kick them out of cover! Atm OKW is very strong vs USA.( We don't talk about the USA mortar ofc)

B) Best solution is to make games, and upload it here: https://www.coh2.org/forum/109/replay-reviews

Way too often i see arguments: This unit beats this 1on1, this mg beats this mg, plz nerf/buff...

Way too seldom i see real discussion about learning how to play the strenghts against enemy weaknesses. Just like Sturmpanther mentioned: You use Kubel to drive the yanks out of cover. Maybe it doesn't wipe the whole squad, but can do serious damage and force a retreat if used right. Maybe then your Sturmpioneers can then shoo them off.

I think, if players want REAL balanced fights, they should play games with perfectly mirroded arena maps, play OKW vs. OKW matches... and have same commanders forced.

It's not fun, but its balanced, so...
“War is not nice.”
― Barbara Bush

1) if you go battlegroup first, you maybe should go t3 next, not mechanized truck and then luchs, because t3 allows you to hold cutoff/fuel constantly and make p4. By the time you build t1 and t2 and luchs, usf player may have sherman already.
2) if you want luchs, go staight for t2 and luchs and then battlegroup. that is pro tactic Kappa
3) try early kubelspam - build 2 kubels, keep them together with sturmpio support, hunt and push lone usf squads. And make sure 3rd kubel is capping your side of map with shift-order. This strat works on open areas with few buildings. Also dont forget to tech up in time

1) if you go battlegroup first, you maybe should go t3 next, not mechanized truck and then luchs, because t3 allows you to hold cutoff/fuel constantly and make p4. By the time you build t1 and t2 and luchs, usf player may have sherman already.
2) if you want luchs, go staight for t2 and luchs and then battlegroup. that is pro tactic Kappa
3) try early kubelspam - build 2 kubels, keep them together with sturmpio support, hunt and push lone usf squads. And make sure 3rd kubel is capping your side of map with shift-order. This strat works on open areas with few buildings. Also dont forget to tech up in time

I've been trying around with different build orders/tech paths, thanks for the suggestions. I've also noticed I don't use mines or sandbags at all, which is something that I need to implement in my games.

The only thing which I really feel like I've no chance against is the military truck. Everything else can be dealt with if I play well. Volks and Sturms can't scratch it, and with one rifle squad inside it can easily chase down and kill an entire squad. Only answer seems to be skilful use of raketenwerfer, but the skill required to capably use an immobile unit that dies easily to enemy infantry squads and has limited fire arc and line of sight is beyond a player of my level. Whereas abusing the military truck requires a very low amount of skill - even a player of my level (9/10) can comfortably abuse it to murder countless enemy squads. Even if I do kill his military truck (only happens if the opponent is really careless), it means I've dumped a lot of early manpower on the raketenwerfer, which is just a slow moving and hyper-vulnerable capping unit for the rest of the early-mid game, which in turn makes me uncompetitive in seizing territory. How do pro players deal with the 0cp military truck?

There is really no reason not to build sandbags with your Volks everywhere you cap, specially if you place them besides the flag so only you can benefit from it while defending, it will help you stall or bleed enemy rifles trying to 1vs1 your volks.

Mechanized is not really that popular, at least compared to the really meta USF commanders, so it's a surprise you are seeing it so often used against you, Raketen remains your best counter to it and I think it can one shot it, denying your enemy the withdraw and refit use.
Remember it can retreat so you can be bold with it as you go around ninja capping with it.

There is really no reason not to build sandbags with your Volks everywhere you cap, specially if you place them besides the flag so only you can benefit from it while defending, it will help you stall or bleed enemy rifles trying to 1vs1 your volks.

Mechanized is not really that popular, at least compared to the really meta USF commanders, so it's a surprise you are seeing it so often used against you, Raketen remains your best counter to it and I think it can one shot it, denying your enemy the withdraw and refit use.
Remember it can retreat so you can be bold with it as you go around ninja capping with it.

Yeah lower-mid level meta is quite different from higher tier play. I don't see maxim spam that much for Soviets even though I read about it a lot on forums/chat. It happens on occasion, but conscripts with PPSH or shock troops into KV8 are far more common. I guess I'll just try to improve with my raketenwerfer control for now. 0-6 in games against the damned truck.

I've been trying around with different build orders/tech paths, thanks for the suggestions. I've also noticed I don't use mines or sandbags at all, which is something that I need to implement in my games.

The only thing which I really feel like I've no chance against is the military truck. Everything else can be dealt with if I play well. Volks and Sturms can't scratch it, and with one rifle squad inside it can easily chase down and kill an entire squad. Only answer seems to be skilful use of raketenwerfer, but the skill required to capably use an immobile unit that dies easily to enemy infantry squads and has limited fire arc and line of sight is beyond a player of my level. Whereas abusing the military truck requires a very low amount of skill - even a player of my level (9/10) can comfortably abuse it to murder countless enemy squads. Even if I do kill his military truck (only happens if the opponent is really careless), it means I've dumped a lot of early manpower on the raketenwerfer, which is just a slow moving and hyper-vulnerable capping unit for the rest of the early-mid game, which in turn makes me uncompetitive in seizing territory. How do pro players deal with the 0cp military truck?

If you see truck in loadout, then dont build early kubel, and dont let squads walk alone, group them in pairs in early game, so they can focus fire and do enough damage; jump into near buildings if you see truck coming, that also helps a lot

In general dont fight 1v1 with jeep if you are not in house, and dont spread your forces early game

If you think USF is OP, then play USF few rounds.
And see how OKW players counter it.
It makes understand you what's the problem.
To tell the truth, OKW has highest win ratio after patch, and USF has lowest win ratio.
(http://coh2chart.com/)

If you see truck in loadout, then dont build early kubel, and dont let squads walk alone, group them in pairs in early game, so they can focus fire and do enough damage; jump into near buildings if you see truck coming, that also helps a lot

In general dont fight 1v1 with jeep if you are not in house, and dont spread your forces early game

In maps like Brysank Forest where no garrisons ever exist. You might want to do that once USF players know that Volks have no more 1 min faust. Pretty much OKW can die off instantly in 5 mins.

In maps like Brysank Forest where no garrisons ever exist. You might want to do that once USF players know that Volks have no more 1 min faust. Pretty much OKW can die off instantly in 5 mins.

Then use Raketenwerfer.
WC51 Truck has only 180 hp. It means if you shoot only 1 raketenwerfer + 2 kar98k hits, it blows up.
did you know that? kubelwagen has 190 hp, and USF has no anti-vehicle weapons before 2 tier.
WC51 needs commander, and 240manpower 20 fuel + 280manpower for rifleman in it, but kubelwagen needs only 210 manpower.
kubelwagen spamming is more threatening.
If you dont believe this, I can show you USF has no counter-play on kubelwagen spam.
- and that's why volks' panzerfaust nerfs on this patch.