Balance team, Please buff the USF AA HT

So, I main USF and played around with WBP 1.7 a lot to test the new changes and tweak builds. And so far I kinda liked it(except penals). Which brings me to my main point, the AA halftrack will not be even considered for use in 1v1 in its current state. Period.

Main arguments for this is:
1. Going LT tier usually warrants a fast M20. The shock value alone can outright end games if played right. It has mines, smoke and even a zook(probably be removed) for anti-light vehicle duty. The M20's far overshadows the HT and even with M20 nerfs, it will still be the meta pick for LT tier.

2. The problems of the unit itself. Not only it's hard enough to even micro the damn HT, pathfinding will absolutely screw players over because of the driving capabilities of a retarded seal. The main gun can NOT penetrate 100% the Luchs and the new 222 will demolish the HT that costs twice as much as the 222.

3. It has no AT capabilites ever. Main gun shoots too slow and not enough pen too make up for the price. Luchs, Puma and 222 will hit the field around the same time if both sides are equal, limiting its usefulness by far. The price itself will delay weapon racks even further, and if we go racks first there's no point in going for HT in the first place.


Proposed buffs for AA HT:
1. Just give the unit the ability to fire frontal and most of the pathfinding issues is gone because players won't have to spam the U key in a fight.

2. Increase main gun penetration so it can pen Luchs reliably.

3. Double damage on main gun but penalty vs infantry increased to -75% so it doesn't screw with infantry balance.

4. Give 'Prioritise Vehicles' ability.

These fixes alone can help a lot with making the unit viable and not just something for bragging rights in a match. The OKW HT is now more viable in certain matchups because of the buffs it got so I hope the USF gets the same treatment.

Main arguments for this is:

1. Going LT tier usually warrants a fast M20. The shock value alone can outright end games if played right. It has mines, smoke and even a zook(probably be removed) for anti-light vehicle duty. The M20's far overshadows the HT and even with M20 nerfs, it will still be the meta pick for LT tier.

What you have identified here is not an issue with the AAHT; it's an issue with the M20.

The team has already identified this problem, and that's why we proposed the M20 changes that we proposed. Unfortunately, those changes are reverted, and I guess that this will require another patch to convince the powers that be to include those changes.

2. The problems of the unit itself. Not only it's hard enough to even micro the damn HT, pathfinding will absolutely screw players over because of the driving capabilities of a retarded seal. The main gun can NOT penetrate 100% the Luchs and the new 222 will demolish the HT that costs twice as much as the 222.

You can always deter a Luchs with AT grenades when that happens. Regarding the 222, it's the other way around, though:
- M15 lost none of its efficacy vs the 222
- The 222 is significantly more expensive now
- The 222 deals a bit less damage with the autocannon at close

If you have issues vs the 222, just hit the handbrake. The M15 will not fire its AP rounds while it is moving.

The M15 is:
- Mobile (thus, annoying to kill, especially with AT guns)
- Excellent vs infantry
- Excellent vs half-track vehicles (Not counting Luchs/Puma)

Given its status as a shock unit, we don't think we should expand the repertoire of the M15 any further. At least, not at this point. If the M15 becomes a beast vs vehicles, what is there to prevent USF going M20 into M15 and dominating everything?

Make no mistake, the Lieutenant tier is a lot stronger now, as a whole.

I really dont want this dark age of dual USF AA HT coming again ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmCKe4zJYiQ

I mostly agree with OP, as long as the balance against infantry does not change. It's pretty damned strong against infantry right now.

The biggest point of controversy here is an increase in penetration to be effective vs the luchs. The rest of the stuff is just to deal with the pain in the ass of commanding this unit, and it is a pain because it's so clumsy.

So the question that needs to be answered is how effective should the HT be against a luchs? Should it beat it? Should it at least be close so that maybe a full barrage + a single shot from a bazooka causes it to win? I don't really want to form a full opinion on this, because I think I am a bit biased, however I do think the HT main gun should be somewhat effective at least.

Might be better to just flip the USF at gun and the AA half track in tiers. This way you get some form of decent at, and suppression in both tiers, not completely crippling one or the other.

Main arguments for this is:



What you have identified here is not an issue with the AAHT; it's an issue with the M20.

The team has already identified this problem, and that's why we proposed the M20 changes that we proposed. Unfortunately, those changes are reverted, and I guess that this will require another patch to convince the powers that be to include those changes.

Even with the nerfs, the M20 serves as a better, cheaper shock unit(also best mines) that has no counters available from its deployment that early vs the AA HT which shares the field with other lights.

You can always deter a Luchs with AT grenades when that happens. Regarding the 222, it's the other way around, though:
- M15 lost none of its efficacy vs the 222
- The 222 is significantly more expensive now
- The 222 deals a bit less damage with the autocannon at close

If you have issues vs the 222, just hit the handbrake. The M15 will not fire its AP rounds while it is moving.

M15 lost none of its efficacy vs the 222(which was pretty low to begin with)
The 222 is significantly more expensive now(now serves as a anti-light, your words)
The 222 deals a bit less damage with the autocannon at close(if they're fighting close range, something is very wrong)

AP rounds for HT is pretty weak to begin with.

The M15 is:
- Mobile (thus, annoying to kill, especially with AT guns)
- Excellent vs infantry
- Excellent vs half-track vehicles (Not counting Luchs/Puma)

Given its status as a shock unit, we don't think we should expand the repertoire of the M15 any further. At least, not at this point. If the M15 becomes a beast vs vehicles, what is there to prevent USF going M20 into M15 and dominating everything?

Make no mistake, the Lieutenant tier is a lot stronger now, as a whole.

- Mobile (thus, annoying to kill, especially with AT guns) = same as M20, difference is its squishier
- Excellent vs infantry = shared with M20, but it's true HT does its job better
- Excellent vs half-track vehicles (Not counting Luchs/Puma) = No, with the new buffs, the OKW HT will shred the AA HT and with no prioritise vehicle, AA HT will do figure 8's before it fires on the OST HT

No sane USF player will want to have 2 intensive micro units with no good AT, only good vs infantry, and no utility whatsoever. The only light that can be paired with is the Stuart, and that is in another tier.

Compared to the OKW HT,

- Can defend itself against lights due to how Allied armor works(also buffed pen helps)
- Increased viability vs garrisons, which is a huge issue as OKW
- Has smoke (its fine if you guys didn't include this, as USF HT is already super mobile, excluding spastic driving)

I really dont want this dark age of dual USF AA HT coming again ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmCKe4zJYiQ

He made a serious mistake going Shrecks vs a unit that can suppress, plus muni conversion hurts his ability to get Puma, hell even a Luchs is enough to scare the HT away.

I actually think it is pretty good, especially with the 222 getting a cost increase.

He made a serious mistake going Shrecks vs a unit that can suppress, plus muni conversion hurts his ability to get Puma, hell even a Luchs is enough to scare the HT away.

3 games, 3 Spam USF AA HT, goold old times