Poll: The Land Matress

It would still require 8CP to be build so it could not come any sooner than now but only at the same speed or later.

The thing is that the game is balanced around 1 v 1 where the land mattress is no big problem. If a Brit goes LM he won't have enough fuel for tanks and have the armor disadvantage.

In team games you have a mate to compensate for that. The Brit can bunker in with a mortar pit + bofors to lock down 2 VPs and then barrage the hell out of everything with multiple land mattresses.

All of you have to keep in mind that Germans are much more vulnerable to Allied arty because of the following reasons:

Ostheer:

• Small Troops (Only 4 men for all squads besides Osttruppen)
  
• The faction relies heavily on its superior support weapons in pair with defensive gameplay: Mortars, MG42, PaKs, are all countered by artillery.
  

OKW:

• Designed around frontline HQs that get destroyed with only few LM barrages
  
• Extremely high costs for armor -> No AT capabilities without Raketenwerfers that get easily wiped with the LM.
  

Meanwhile allied troops (beside Brits) don't face the danger of full wipes with artillery that much. Five/Six men squads usually guarantee one or two survivors even after a critical hit. Also Mortar Pits have a huge range and can only be effectively countered by LeIGs which are wiped by LM barrages.

Don't nerf the LM into a useless state. But reduce the barrage duration and rockets. Panzerwerfer and Stuka have one single barrage whereas the Land Mattress has 30 rockets with a barrage that lasts about 10 seconds. You can't retreat your troops without the high risk of getting wiped while on retreat. Not speaking about PaKs that cannot retreat and die almost 100% because of the huge area of effect the LM has.

The LM commander is just too good. The commandos can wipe the floor with everything that is left after a LM barrage because they can spawn instantly at any building which is stupid. Make commandos appear from the glider just like the ones in other doctrines.

I'd be fine with that if gliders didn't take 30 minutes to land and the squad was 5 men and could plant demos. Commandos out of buildings is kinda cheesy tho, but so are falls. Basically the same thing with some differences in performance that even out.

Ah...now i understand...u think the LM is not behind the front...and there is no bofors, and the brit player is a fully dumb idiot, who think like a monkey and play like dead horse.

ah..i dont know in which skill level you play...but the most brit player (me included) know that the LM must behind the front and should be save by a bofors and a pak...
and should be run after its barrage...and dont should stay at the the same place (only noobs do that)

So somehow by having a bofors it extends the land mattresses range? Because it still had to roll right up to the front to barrage, and still has a long setup/teardown time. The thing is, I don't play blundering idiots like you, so they make smart plays sometimes. Hell, you could just dnipe it with a kt while it barrages. Bofors doesn't counter kt. As to lm being way cheaper, the fuel cost is, but it costs a ton of manpower, which is something allies are usually very starved for if they're playing right. You can't just discount that. When I don't play brits or usf I play wehr, which is easily the most vulnerable to the land mattress, but I get wiped about the same by it as other rocket arty. You can complain about how it shoots more rockets, but other rocket arty (cept katy) does it way faster, especially pwerfer, which leads to less warning time and more wipe potential. What do you do on your front line? Sleep? Usually you can see the lm setting up if it's barraging a concentration, and failing that, hear the first few rockets and retreat your troops or reposition your at guns (the at will probably get wiped but then you can revere just like lm).

While he is QQing too much, that part is actually correct. LeFH (or all other Howitzer like arty including Priest/Suxton), Pwerfer, Shock nade and Stuka Napalm have the FF in the "wrong" category.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/58531/friendly-fire/post/585387


I think most people won't have the same POV as you but most people would agree the unit is on the strong side on 2v2+.

The problem from biased points of either side is that you can't arrive to the correct answer of why something is overpowered.
LM is not as good as ANY OTHER rocket artillery in killing SINGLE squads but will shine on obliterating a zone dense of troops (hello 2v2+).

As i said before on another thread, start by replacing the extra +25% damage it gets at vet2 which is one of the biggest reason the unit ends up as a wipe machine later on during the game.

AND 0.03/0.03 Friendly fire category should go to 0.20/0.20.

Wait really? That's bizarre. And dumb.

Also, the 25% extra damage should probably get removed. No rocket arty should get that.

So somehow by having a bofors it extends the land mattresses range? Because it still had to roll right up to the front to barrage, and still has a long setup/teardown time. The thing is, I don't play blundering idiots like you, so they make smart plays sometimes. Hell, you could just dnipe it with a kt while it barrages. Bofors doesn't counter kt. As to lm being way cheaper, the fuel cost is, but it costs a ton of manpower, which is something allies are usually very starved for if they're playing right. You can't just discount that. When I don't play brits or usf I play wehr, which is easily the most vulnerable to the land mattress, but I get wiped about the same by it as other rocket arty. You can complain about how it shoots more rockets, but other rocket arty (cept katy) does it way faster, especially pwerfer, which leads to less warning time and more wipe potential. What do you do on your front line? Sleep? Usually you can see the lm setting up if it's barraging a concentration, and failing that, hear the first few rockets and retreat your troops or reposition your at guns (the at will probably get wiped but then you can revere just like lm).

u lie in every single post. i testet it: a PW need 6-8 sec from the first sound to bring a rocket to ground...the LM often under 4sec!! same range to the target.
an PW has a bigger wiping rate?? wtf?? are u kidding us? it pins unit..not more..only RNG can wipe ur units..but--this is only luck...or ur units was under 30%

Hello,


i seen in this Thread:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/58722/the-land-matress-is-to-strong

that the most user think that the LM is to strong and wipes to often.

causes:

- 30 rockets, every rocket have the abilty to wipe a 4 model Squad
- it deals much dmg vs tanks
- the time to react after hear the sound is to short (under 4sec....a PW give u around 6-8 sec time to react)
- it can easly recrewed after killed the models
- it is to potent ... and really Op if u have more than 1 on field
- it doensnt need tech and comes early and is really cheap
- it is in the most picked commander from brits....it is int the meta commander (so no big decision need)


What do you think?

ur thread is super one sided... and there is nothing wrong with land matress... it was already nerfed dont forget... it was a huge nerf.... other mobile arty can move in close to insta wipe units... land cant do this

If there's 8cp floating around and you don't have brits' t3 I don't know what's going on.

Agreed, yet it requires a build time still, so it takes longer..

u lie in every single post. i testet it: a PW need 6-8 sec from the first sound to bring a rocket to ground...the LM often under 4sec!! same range to the target.
an PW has a bigger wiping rate?? wtf?? are u kidding us? it pins unit..not more..only RNG can wipe ur units..but--this is only luck...or ur units was under 30%

I tested it too; many times with a stopwatch and both lm and pwerfer. The panzerwerfer, starting at the sound of the very first rocket firing and ending when the very first rocket impacts, took around 5.7 seconds at max range. The lm, with the same conditions, took 3.9. 5.7 seconds is a lot different than 8 ullumulu. You may have counted the time it takes for the panzerwerfer to turn its turret, which takes about two seconds. The mattress is faster, but not as fast as you originally stipulated. Also, the mattress moves much slower and thus responds to targets of opportunity, like a blob, much slower than the panzerwerfer, and also has a much longer barrage, during which it is vulnerable, and a very long teardown time, still vulnerable there too. So yes, it is easy to steal, and yes, I wasn't lying, as you claim. As to the bigger wipe rate, the panzerwerfers rockets are much easier to shoot at minimum range due to the points I just mentioned, especially the speed and short barrage time, so all ten rockets can easily land in the same place. A land mattress should really never shoot from minimum range at any important target as it will be so very easily retaliated upon, but panzerwerfers can do it easily. Also, it has a much more concentrated and time on target barrage when compared to the mattress whose first few rockets will probably fall wide of a non-blob target, and whose barrage is extended and has a slower rate of fire. So unless you're a stupid team game blobber, panzerwerfer has more wiping potential. Can't wait to hear your next reply.
Edit: spelling

It can't retreat. Which is why it's so EASY TO STEAL. How does that not make sense?

Because you have to somehow get past the entire UKF army to steal it, while dodging or taking zero damage from the LM barrage? And retreat cuts both ways, UKF can't retreat it back to their base, but you can't either.

And this is different than other rocket arty because...

Because its much cheaper and requires no tech investment?

It would still require 8CP to be build so it could not come any sooner than now but only at the same speed or later.

The thing is that the game is balanced around 1 v 1 where the land mattress is no big problem. If a Brit goes LM he won't have enough fuel for tanks and have the armor disadvantage.

In team games you have a mate to compensate for that. The Brit can bunker in with a mortar pit + bofors to lock down 2 VPs and then barrage the hell out of everything with multiple land mattresses.

All of you have to keep in mind that Germans are much more vulnerable to Allied arty because of the following reasons:

Ostheer:

• Small Troops (Only 4 men for all squads besides Osttruppen)
  
• The faction relies heavily on its superior support weapons in pair with defensive gameplay: Mortars, MG42, PaKs, are all countered by artillery.
  

OKW:

• Designed around frontline HQs that get destroyed with only few LM barrages
  
• Extremely high costs for armor -> No AT capabilities without Raketenwerfers that get easily wiped with the LM.
  

Meanwhile allied troops (beside Brits) don't face the danger of full wipes with artillery that much. Five/Six men squads usually guarantee one or two survivors even after a critical hit. Also Mortar Pits have a huge range and can only be effectively countered by LeIGs which are wiped by LM barrages.

Don't nerf the LM into a useless state. But reduce the barrage duration and rockets. Panzerwerfer and Stuka have one single barrage whereas the Land Mattress has 30 rockets with a barrage that lasts about 10 seconds. You can't retreat your troops without the high risk of getting wiped while on retreat. Not speaking about PaKs that cannot retreat and die almost 100% because of the huge area of effect the LM has.

The LM commander is just too good. The commandos can wipe the floor with everything that is left after a LM barrage because they can spawn instantly at any building which is stupid. Make commandos appear from the glider just like the ones in other doctrines.

The LM commander is a pure anti Ost commander. Pesky MG 42 in a house? Here Flamethrowers for no Reason. Cant get yolowipes? Here have some op as fuck CQC commandos (must be close range because you know Allies have to dominate those engagements) with the most bullshit grenade in the game. What Ostplayer is not confined to his base yet? Here easy wipe machine to kill all the support weapons in one go. Not as braindead as SimCity but a strong contender.

Because you have to somehow get past the entire UKF army to steal it, while dodging or taking zero damage from the LM barrage? And retreat cuts both ways, UKF can't retreat it back to their base, but you can't either.



Because its much cheaper and requires no tech investment?

That's true but two caveats:

Comes at 8cp, and if you don't have brits T3 by 8cp (especialy in teamgames where rocket arty in general shines),there's something wrong; it used to come at 5cp (Opieop).

Also, it costs a lot of manpower, 350, which you can't just discount (yes the fuel cost is really cheap for some reason. Would definitely be ok with seeing it upped to 60-65 like stuka IIRC).

As to your first point, it often has to move pretty close to the front and is still very vulnerable to counterartillery (stukas especially). I understand that the retreat goes both ways, but a greedy landmattress (trying to get close to really punish a target) can turn into an axis land mattress pretty quick. There are occassions (mostly 1v1) where, through smart play, I was able to steal okw infantry support guns, which are a lot harder to kill with small arms fire.

That's true but two caveats:

Comes at 8cp, and if you don't have brits T3 by 8cp (especialy in teamgames where rocket arty in general shines),there's something wrong; it used to come at 5cp (Opieop).

Also, it costs a lot of manpower, 350, which you can't just discount (yes the fuel cost is really cheap for some reason. Would definitely be ok with seeing it upped to 60-65 like stuka IIRC).

As to your first point, it often has to move pretty close to the front and is still very vulnerable to counterartillery (stukas especially). I understand that the retreat goes both ways, but a greedy landmattress (trying to get close to really punish a target) can turn into an axis land mattress pretty quick. There are occassions (mostly 1v1) where, through smart play, I was able to steal okw infantry support guns, which are a lot harder to kill with small arms fire.

WTF? Stuka cost 390Mp and 100(!!!!!) gas!
ISG is hard to kill with small arms?? wtf...which game do u play??
and to srteal a LM need a much dumb enemy brit...which use it in front of the front (wtf??)

you can bomb the enemy defence line from behind ur front (except u build ur front in ur base)

I tested it too; many times with a stopwatch and both lm and pwerfer. The panzerwerfer, starting at the sound of the very first rocket firing and ending when the very first rocket impacts, took around 5.7 seconds at max range. The lm, with the same conditions, took 3.9. 5.7 seconds is a lot different than 8 ullumulu. You may have counted the time it takes for the panzerwerfer to turn its turret, which takes about two seconds. The mattress is faster, but not as fast as you originally stipulated. Also, the mattress moves much slower and thus responds to targets of opportunity, like a blob, much slower than the panzerwerfer, and also has a much longer barrage, during which it is vulnerable, and a very long teardown time, still vulnerable there too. So yes, it is easy to steal, and yes, I wasn't lying, as you claim. As to the bigger wipe rate, the panzerwerfers rockets are much easier to shoot at minimum range due to the points I just mentioned, especially the speed and short barrage time, so all ten rockets can easily land in the same place. A land mattress should really never shoot from minimum range at any important target as it will be so very easily retaliated upon, but panzerwerfers can do it easily. Also, it has a much more concentrated and time on target barrage when compared to the mattress whose first few rockets will probably fall wide of a non-blob target, and whose barrage is extended and has a slower rate of fire. So unless you're a stupid team game blobber, panzerwerfer has more wiping potential. Can't wait to hear your next reply.
Edit: spelling

only for u i made a video:



here is the proof:

time from first sound to bomb the first rocket to ground:

stuka: (ingame timer) 2,47 to 2,53 = 6sek

PW: (ingame timer) 3,13 to 3,19 = 6sek

kat: (ingame timer) 3,42 to 3,45 = 3sek

cal: (ingame timer) 4,09 to 4,13 = 4sek

LM: (ingame timer) 4,42 to 4,44 = 2sek

That video shows nothing.....when you fire a barrage with one of those, you want to close the distance to the target in order to maximize the damage dealt...and after barrgage, you want to retreat to a safer spot your roket arty platform so it is safe (counterbarrgae as you as said plenty of times in this same thread)...

how many times your roket platform is in the nice spot to fire its barrage without moving??? and what is the platform that spend more time to get into position before firing??? yeah....

That video shows nothing.....when you fire a barrage with one of those, you want to close the distance to the target in order to maximize the damage dealt...and after barrgage, you want to retreat to a safer spot your roket arty platform so it is safe (counterbarrgae as you as said plenty of times in this same thread)...

how many times your roket platform is in the nice spot to fire its barrage without moving??? and what is the platform that spend more time to get into position before firing??? yeah....

this test shows only the time which you have to react after hear the sound from a rocket arti.

Not more. if it well used...u have only 2sec after hear the LM sound to react....so yeah..well..its nothing...even a grenade give u more time.

THis shows only that u have much time after hear ftom stuka/PW...but no time after hear sound from LM.

its really to fast

this are the sec u have to react--- testet with a stopwatch:
STUKA: 5,97
PW: 5,89
KAT: 3,08
CAL: 4,19
LM: 2,82

this are the sec u have to react--- testet with a stopwatch:
STUKA: 5,97
PW: 5,89
KAT: 3,08
CAL: 4,19
LM: 2,82

All that time and effort wasted. If you want to continue doing test then:

-How long does it take to unload all the payload for each barrage (from the first rocket till the last)
-For the 4 rocket artillery (Stuka zu fuss can't be really consider a rocket artillery in the same sense as the other 4 since it unloads a barrage with a fix position and increased damage), how long does it take to land the first 8-10 ROCKETS. (The single rocket barrage from the PW, the 2 barrages from Katyusha, the first barrage from CalliOP, the 10st rockets from LM).

If you spend less time in the forums and more improving in the game you'll realise that what you are trying to prove is pointless as each of the 5 pieces work quite differently.

Show Spoiler

TL;DR: you are making blind tests without realising what's wrong with the unit or which direction it should be nerfed. We already had the same problem with CalliOP were it got proper nerfs (decrew) but didn't solve the 1st/2nd wipe barrage (should kept the 3 barrages with an increase in the gap and give them equal amount of rockets)
As i've been saying on this thread: give it a proper veterancy (remove the vet2 bonus) and see where it stands. If further nerfs are required, increase fuel cost and/or slower down the RoF while keeping the amount of rockets (cause firing lots of them inaccurate is the essence of the unit).

All that time and effort wasted. If you want to continue doing test then:

-How long does it take to unload all the payload for each barrage (from the first rocket till the last)
-For the 4 rocket artillery (Stuka zu fuss can't be really consider a rocket artillery in the same sense as the other 4 since it unloads a barrage with a fix position and increased damage), how long does it take to land the first 8-10 ROCKETS. (The single rocket barrage from the PW, the 2 barrages from Katyusha, the first barrage from CalliOP, the 10st rockets from LM).

If you spend less time in the forums and more improving in the game you'll realise that what you are trying to prove is pointless as each of the 5 pieces work quite differently.

Show Spoiler

TL;DR: you are making blind tests without realising what's wrong with the unit or which direction it should be nerfed. We already had the same problem with CalliOP were it got proper nerfs (decrew) but didn't solve the 1st/2nd wipe barrage (should kept the 3 barrages with an increase in the gap and give them equal amount of rockets)
As i've been saying on this thread: give it a proper veterancy (remove the vet2 bonus) and see where it stands. If further nerfs are required, increase fuel cost and/or slower down the RoF while keeping the amount of rockets (cause firing lots of them inaccurate is the essence of the unit).

The first rocket can wipe a squad/ team weapon....a PW give u nearly 3x more time to react as a LM it gives.

LM has a huge circle it show where rockets can land....but the reality is: the most rockets lands in the centre, not much bigger than from other rocket launchers.

The first rocket can wipe a squad/ team weapon....a PW give u nearly 3x more time to react as a LM it gives.

LM has a huge circle it show where rockets can land....but the reality is: the most rockets lands in the centre, not much bigger than from other rocket launchers.

Ullu, I'm sorry but you're full of biased shit. First, panzerwerfer took 8 seconds, now you change it to 6, lamdmattress took 2, now you change it to 2.82 (which is still off), now panzerwerfer takes 3x longer than landmatress, but 6 is not three times 2.82 (sorry to say, but you need to check your basic math). You would have to make a Herculean effort to get your squad even hit by the first rocket in a landmatrress barrage, let alone wiped by it, and I'm pretty sure all rockets fired by rocket arty are pretty much samey in terms of damage and aoe (someone correct me with statistics if I'm wrong). One of your big bitching points earlier in the thread was that the radius was so big and now you say that it's not that much bigger than other rocket launchers. All your arguments are falling on their stupid faces man.



Footnote: in my testing yesterday I discovered that I was wrong about the land mattress barrage range being shorter. I think it's pretty much the same as the panzerwerfer.

Footnote: in my testing yesterday I discovered that I was wrong about the land mattress barrage range being shorter. I think it's pretty much the same as the panzerwerfer.

Copypaste:

CalliOP/Katyusha range is 200, PW is 160 and LM 120. If you use ANY of them at 70/80 range you will wipe whatever target

Copypaste:

CalliOP/Katyusha range is 200, PW is 160 and LM 120. If you use ANY of them at 70/80 range you will wipe whatever target

Ok so I was kinda right. Seemed really negligible when I was testing it, but in actual combat it always did seem shorter.