Relic Winter Balance Preview v1.4 Update

i spam 4-5 penals...i upgrade 2 squads with ptrs...no i can deal with everything.

where is the logic? i seen penals which kills 2 models from grens....on the MOVE! and at longe range...maybe bad RNG...but this was so horrbible...combine penals with ptrs penals..and let the spam begin.

before the patch u can build 1-2 222s to deal with penals spam...no its impossible...u need grens, pios, HT, mg, mortar to deal with them ....nice one

Build falme HT, its stop penals power, mean that he must use at least 2 squad together, and its a lot muni for soviet player, you have time with HT to drop model, or wipe squad, he will be heal so long. Just 90 muni for HT, yes, his armor are bet, but its glass cannon.

Build falme HT, its stop penals power, mean that he must use at least 2 squad together, and its a lot muni for soviet player, you have time with HT to drop model, or wipe squad, he will be heal so long. Just 90 muni for HT, yes, his armor are bet, but its glass cannon.

lol..u have no clue what do u say there...penals with ptrs kill flame HT in under 10sec...with 2 shoots from every ptrs.

man..pls test the penals with ptrs...they kill panther in under 45sec

Dont turn this around now. You complain you cant have AT for early axis vehicles when you decide to go T1 to get:
-superior infantry that still scales great into late game
-snipers that counter both OST snipers as well apply severe bleed to axis infantry rooster because their low model count
-scout vehicle which can be turned into clowncar to deal with HMG's, mortars, or with proper micro, with regular squads, which is sometimes pushed blindly into the field since it is a death sentence to kubel the moment they meet.

other then that, you can fill gaps from lack of either T1 or T2 with guards ,120mm mortar, M-42, DShK, and so on, since soviets doctrines were always designed around filling those gaps due to the nature of their T1/T2 and T3/T4

I dont complaine about it, i just write to ullumulu, his topic about 3 min zis compared to when luchs arrive. Dont need turn around this.
Thats why almost in all tourneys players exept Jesulin and Brosras play with t2, not with t1.
How many m3 help you vs ostheer ? How often players build m3 if its so god unit vs ostheer ?
Why DevM dont play with m3 but with USF if its so good ?
Coz soviet teching from t1 into t2 based on MP, its a lot MP.

lol..u have no clue what do u say there...penals with ptrs kill flame HT in under 10sec...with 2 shoots from every ptrs.

man..pls test the penals with ptrs...they kill panther in under 45sec

That how you play this game, use flame HT vs normal penals or wait when ptrs penals will be retreut. ALso thay have not good accuracy vs light vehicles.

To many players saing you can go current penals without PTRS and simply tech for zis.

Problem is you cannot.

Early game you lose 160mp and cca30 seconds just to start getting penals. Then each penal is 60 mp more than gren and 50 mp more than volks. Enemy will have sturms and 3 volks and kubel at time you get 3rd penal and your first engineer.

Also he will have much better map control resulting into fuel dominance provided by kubel and also better positions because his squad came faster on field than yours.

This transits into his map dominance in first minutes of play til you get standing army. Then you will have to pay 250mp to get medics, just medics, its not like okw where you get it as part of teching for 100MP cost (300MP for truck and battlegruppe is as teching cost, same you spend for getting tier1 or tier2, then tier3, flakHQ cost is almost same as tier4 so its fine). You see, medics for okw are cheaper. Also he can skip them alltogether and just stay on pio medkits, whitch got buffed.


And now enemy will role his luchs. You will have to spend another 320+160 mp to just keep yourself in game to get at gun. Also if he flanks at gun or swarms you, its gg for you because you lack AT nade. So if you got 3 penals and zis you will spend 1960 MP if we count also medics. Withou them you will bleed even more and lose even more map resulting into slower teching, if ever.

For 1960 MP enemy will have luchs, sturmpioneers, kubel and 4 volks because okw start with more MP than soviets because of "truck cost".

You see clearly imbalance, you cannot hold your position with single AT gun and 3 penals against 4 volks, spios and luchs. You will lose badly. And with current penals there is no way to make such early game blow to his play as he gives you mid game, because of tier1 build time.


Against ostheer its the same, at the time you will get first penal on the field he will have mg in key house and for every penal he will have one grenadier because ostheer have some starting MP bonus as well, penals cost more and tier1 for soviets is more expensive than ost tier1.

This will once again result into 3 grens and mg against 3 penals. Try outfighting that knowing you will have to spend additional 750MP for medics and AT gun, rough cost he will spent getting flamer 251, medics and 222.

In ost matchup its not as drastic but you still can see axis have advantage when you get tier1 both in super early game and mid game. In both matchups enemy will get more map super early, you will outfight him and get your half back later on then he will outrun you with his lights.


PS: PTRS on penals is nowhere near OP. With thaaat big aiming time you can kite PTRS penals with luch or 222 forever and ever. Also they are one less squad on the field because they do nothing to enemy infantry.


Saying penals are OP or even too good and worth right now is madness. And if you don´t believe me, ask anyone who played with me in WBP game either on soviet side or on axis side. Every time this scenario was the same.

I am really trying to understand why you always point out that building a T1 is such a chore and game breaking handicap to recieve superior units, while Ostheer in 2 out of 3 games face the same fate while starting with the weakest combat-wise unit and is getting grenadiers who cannot stand toe to toe against Rifles, Infantry sections or those bloody penals you mentioned. The only saving grace for them is the HMG, but still it forces OST player to keep his units together, which makes him lose map control.

And while I don't agree that post-WBP OST vs SU will be in anyway rigged in either of sides ( perhaps it will be the best balanced matchup there will be) You should accept that if you go with T1 vs OKW the early game might be more difficult (even this is questionable, since as I told you SU scout car punishes kubel way too much for the time being, and Penals will hold their gorund agains volks, which was shown in the videos above, especialy if volks will advance agressively, as you described.)

You can always simply go T2 and secure ground with support weapons, just as OST does. and I would like to remind you OST dont have the luxury of choosing either T1 or T2, and basicly they posses next to zero of "strategic diversity" you all speak about.

I have already quoted how hypocretic or not-thinking many axis player are. They claim somehing and the same day say exactly opposite.

I am really trying to understand why you always point out that building a T1 is such a chore and game breaking handicap to recieve superior units, while Ostheer in 2 out of 3 games face the same fate while starting with the weakest combat-wise unit and is getting grenadiers who cannot stand toe to toe against Rifles, Infantry sections or those bloody penals you mentioned. The only saving grace for them is the HMG, but still it forces OST player to keep his units together, which makes him lose map control.

And while I don't agree that post-WBP OST vs SU will be in anyway rigged in either of sides ( perhaps it will be the best balanced matchup there will be) You should accept that if you go with T1 vs OKW the early game might be more difficult (even this is questionable, since as I told you SU scout car punishes kubel way too much for the time being, and Penals will hold their gorund agains volks, which was shown in the videos above, especialy if volks will advance agressively, as you described.)

You can always simply go T2 and secure ground with support weapons, just as OST does. and I would like to remind you OST dont have the luxury of choosing either T1 or T2, and basicly they posses next to zero of "strategic diversity" you all speak about.

I´m not saying it is gamebreaking handicap. I´m saying it is handicap that need to be taken into account when talking about penals.

Pios aren´t weakest combat wise starting unit. Echelons or enginners are.

You clearly don´t understand the concept. Enemy will have 30 seconds advantage resulting into better map presence and fighting positions. Once you get penals enemy will have his volks and sturms in key areas, behind cover or in house, so you will be the one, who will have to approach agressive. M3 is no longer thread to okw because they get faust once they buy 100MP truck, not after teching.

And thants what I will do. Going tier2. Getting 2 cons and 2 maxims right now give you much better map presence and also stronger force.

Ostheer early game is completely different to soviet tier1 approach. For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing, while for soviets you can go cons or get tier1. Problem is that tier1 is inefficient compared to other approaches right now.


Also you didn´t get the concept because I was talking how tier1 would be UP when penals get removed PTRS and also any buffs to AI deparment. Right now its fine, maybe a bit UP, but clealry usable in some situations

Penals with a Guards doctrine, specifically Guard Motor, isn't really addressed with the Penal PTRS option.

I've been able to use Penals as AI units and call-in guards only if I've lost a penal squad or there's a light vehicle rush. Otherwise I can often just bridge T1 play into T4 with Guard Motor.

(The 120mm has saved my bacon more than Guards though, IMO.)

Pios aren´t weakest combat wise starting unit. Echelons or enginners are.

Pios were the butt of the fighting force for some time. Both engies and RE can garrison a critical building or get behind cover and postpone the advance of enemy force for some time, or at least, draw some blood from the distance with favourable garrison or terrain. Pios can't do it (thats why they are buffed).

You clearly don´t understand the concept. Enemy will have 30 seconds advantage resulting into better map presence and fighting positions.

Ostheer early game is completely different to soviet tier1 approach. For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing,

I don't get that. You can't say that building a structure for getting your basic pool of units for one faction is making them lose map control that results in unfair advantage, simultaneously claiming that it is a basic design for the other.

M3 is no longer thread to okw because they get faust once they buy 100MP truck, not after teching.

That is true, that will surely change a lot.

70 fuel difference between luchs and t70. Plus fuel that luchs can deny. So much time is enogh to close the game. Thats why good early at is necessary

You can go T2 and get a Zis. T2 is very cheap.

But obviously you want even more Penals to put more pressure on your opponent, huh?



Lastly, Luchs is nowhere near as game-changing as T-70 squad-wipe machine. Check ImperialDane, Tightrope, GG shoutcasts for similar comments.



Allies have all tons of handheld AT and the best light tanks while Axis have expensive, 4-men handheld AT squads.

3x PTRS vs light tank > 1 shrek
2x Zookas vs light tank > shrek
2x Piats vs light tank > shrek

You can go T2 and get a Zis. T2 is very cheap.

But obviously you want even more Penals to put more pressure on your opponent, huh?



Lastly, Luchs is nowhere near as game-changing as T-70 squad-wipe machine. Check ImperialDane, Tightrope, GG shoutcasts for similar comments.



Allies have all tons of handheld AT and the best light tanks while Axis have expensive, 4-men handheld AT squads.

3x PTRS vs light tank > 1 shrek
2x Zookas vs light tank > shrek
2x Piats vs light tank > shrek

Hector already prooved that T1+T2 is a bit harsh option for SU in terms of map control and MP.

Plus why do you refer to live T70 verions? WBP is no longer such wipe machine.

You clearly don´t understand the concept. Enemy will have 30 seconds advantage resulting into better map presence and fighting positions.

Ostheer early game is completely different to soviet tier1 approach. For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing, while for soviets you can go cons or get tier1. Problem is that tier1 is inefficient compared to other approaches right now.

Dat hypocrisy though...


For soviets, losing time is a problem. For Ostheer it's core design.

"For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing"
What if I told you: For Sovs, you have to build T1 in order to get anything else than Cons - Core design.

Check your facts better.

Hector already prooved that T1+T2 is a bit harsh option for SU in terms of map control and MP.

Plus why do you refer to live T70 verions? WBP is no longer such wipe machine.

He didn't PROVE anything. He claims it is harsh but that doesn't mean it is. Teching T2 for Zis is a very small investment. Hector thinks it's harsh because it means less penalspam.

T70 takes 3 shots to kill in WBP. It's now even more superior to AC and Luchs.

I don't get that. You can't say that building a structure for getting your basic pool of units for one faction is making them lose map control that results in unfair advantage, simultaneously claiming that it is a basic design for the other.

Not 100% that this is what Hector means, but:

Ok, as SOV you have more or less three options to open the game:

1. Start with several conscripts and eventually tech either T1 or T2.
2. Start with T1 (which then will often be followed up by penals)
3. Start with T2 (likely followed up by Maxims).

Now, ideally (for the sake of diversity), each of these options should be viable, at least under certain circumstances. If you start by building either T1 or T2, you are loosing time and thus map control. If the units that you get out of the techbuilding aren't worth that delay, nobody would do it.

Now let us look at OH. Yeah, you have different options there as well:

1. Build T1 and proceed with Grens.
2a. Skip T1 for T2, holding out with Pios and MGs until then.
2b. Skip T1 for T2, replacing Grens with doctrinal units (Osttruppen or Assault Grens).

And all of the above occasionally happen, but in a fast majority of games T1 is build. This means that most people consider T1 units worth the delay.

Now, you might lament that 2a and 2b with the downsides that those come with are often considered less viable than 1, fair enough.

But the discussion here is that the units that you get out of SOV T1 have to be worthwhile to justify the cost and delay, otherwise you will rarely see the techbuilding at all.

Penals with a Guards doctrine, specifically Guard Motor, isn't really addressed with the Penal PTRS option.

I've been able to use Penals as AI units and call-in guards only if I've lost a penal squad or there's a light vehicle rush. Otherwise I can often just bridge T1 play into T4 with Guard Motor.

(The 120mm has saved my bacon more than Guards though, IMO.)

So opponent dont use falme ht/222/luhs/aaht ?

Is the icendiary ostheer sniper shot also out of scope? That ability wiped 2 of my penals on retreat.

He didn't PROVE anything. He claims it is harsh but that doesn't mean it is. Teching T2 for Zis is a very small investment. Hector thinks it's harsh because it means less penalspam.

T70 takes 3 shots to kill in WBP. It's now even more superior to AC and Luchs.

Dat hypocrisy though...
For soviets, losing time is a problem. For Ostheer it's core design.
"For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing"
What if I told you: For Sovs, you have to build T1 in order to get anything else than Cons - Core design.
Check your facts better.

T70 perform really bad after WBP 1.3 i think so it got it's MG to compensate. Reminder that T70 live also takes 3 shots to kill if you use repair ability which also removes snares. It's more expensive and is one of the latest light vehicles to arrive as well. It's no longer the boogeymonster.

For the 2nd part you are missing the point.
OH T1 is cookie cutter build, it's effective, it works.
SU T1 opening is not, specially depending on which Penal version we are gonna end with.

NOTE: 2v2+ is another can of worms which might affect the perceived performance of units, such as in the case of Penals ATM (live or WBP).

Dat hypocrisy though...


For soviets, losing time is a problem. For Ostheer it's core design.

"For ost, you have to build tier1 in order to get anything else than HMG - core desing"
What if I told you: For Sovs, you have to build T1 in order to get anything else than Cons - Core design.

Check your facts better.

Do you play WBP with t1 + t2 into t-70 ? I feel yoo just speak in theory dont playing it.
Lets see who get better map control soviet with t1 or ostheer ?
Magic write right things, oz for you MP are not resource for soviet ?
I like how you move around, blame t-70 liek wipe machine, then ppl write to you taht you mistake compared to WBP, then you write that to kill him need 3 shoots, so problem are with wipes (no wipes in WBP) or taht he have 400 hp like all another and come like last from all light vehicles ?

After t1 is built. Oh have 360 mp SUhave 240.
The units are more expensive too. Early ptepararion for LV rush and teching to own lights is a lot more expensive.
T1 th3n t2 is insane = smth like 3-3.5 extra squads for oponent

You can go T2 and get a Zis. T2 is very cheapk

cheap compared to what. T1+T2 320/30 have always had same unit types +ATG as OH T1 for 80/10

can't belive the amount of soviet fanboys who constantly shits on wehrmacht and says its just by design meanwhile soviets apparently need all sorts of reworks to get around their weaknesses. Relic its time you step in and say enough is enough.

"Do you play WBP with t1 + t2 into t-70 ?"

See this is the kind of shit that makes me vomit, you don't go T1 for early game pressure into T3 for mid game pressure unless that T1 investment really paid off... thats whats called bad design when every game and tech choice boils down to applying more pressure.

In coh1 the M8 was a risky early pressure investment that needed to give you more territory or else you were actually behind because your opponent has his first tank that much quicker because he didnt invest his fuel in light vehicles. Thats risk vs reward.

wanna give PRTS to penals? Fine but then they shouldnt be any more combat effective than conscripts either. And remove that flamer ASAP