Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

Game is based on a BOOK, it doest not have to reflect reality. The content that they promote as being historically accurate is the weaponry, maps and units that are involved. Would you 2 stop being butthurt and stop spamming with what you think is historically accurate just because it was taught in your ex-soviet schools. That'd be great.

"Would you be damn great to pay a bit of attention?
It's damn RELICS say the game plot is damn authentic! It's not the damn us, it's Relics!"
And please
Tell me, if you were.. let's say american. And some russian game studio creates a game about "second front", where american army (where you grandfather served) represented like stupids because of voice acting and dialogs, cowards who fight ONLY because of potential punishment, animals who kill surrendered men, burn civilians and overral discribed very negative. How would you react if your grandfather died in that war? Would you sit quiet while whole world will look at this crap?
No, you wouldn't, because you respect your family. And if you don't, you are unnormal.

"Would you be damn great to pay a bit of attention?
It's damn RELICS say the game plot is damn authentic! It's not the damn us, it's Relics!"
And please
Tell me, if you were.. let's say american. And some russian game studio creates a game about "second front", where american army (where you grandfather served) represented like stupids because of voice acting and dialogs, cowards who fight ONLY because of potential punishment, animals who kill surrendered men, burn civilians and overral discribed very negative. How would you react if your grandfather died in that war? Would you sit quiet while whole world will look at this crap?
No, you wouldn't, because you respect your family. And if you don't, you are unnormal.

If it were based on an actual source of history (like a book which is known to be relevant and trustworthy), then yes, i certainly would accept the past for what it is and take a bloody pill.

Its what the Germans have been doing for ages since '45 but no-one else seems to be in their boat.

(BTW, just so you know, Relic isn't American)

Also trolls > nationalistic morons in a gaming forum.

I wouldnt care, because its a video game.

I wouldnt care, because its a video game.

ikr...

Idiots who rant for the sake of ranting... because that's what it looks like now.

I wouldnt care, because its a video game.

Then you are minority. Have you heard about Konami game about Iraq that was closed because of potential rage from americans? They lost a lot of money, but decided to close this project because most would find it offensive to USA army.

I didn't see Treyarch apologizing to Japan because they made them look like a bunch assholes in World At War. I didn't seem them qualifying it as fictional either.

Wanna know why? Because Japan isn't filled with a load of fuckwads.

Wanna know what else? Because it's widely accepted that that kind of thing happened. It's called artistic license. You take the truth and apply it to a fictional setting.

Historians have analysed the game and said it's accurate. Are you, an ignorant nationalist who has little more than a high school education AKA brainwash of the subject, more qualified than a Historian who has studied the subject for years of his life in a high standard extremely professional setting?

Apparently so.

I didn't see Treyarch apologizing to Japan because they made them look like a bunch assholes in World At War. I didn't seem them qualifying it as fictional either.

Wanna know why? Because Japan isn't filled with a load of fuckwads.

Wanna know what else? Because it's widely accepted that that kind of thing happened. It's called artistic license. You take the truth and apply it to a fictional setting.

Historians have analysed the game and said it's accurate. Are you, an ignorant nationalist who has little more than a high school education AKA brainwash of the subject, more qualified than a Historian who has studied the subject for years of his life in a high standard extremely professional setting?

Apparently so.

Such a great example of civialized man.

"Would you be damn great to pay a bit of attention?
It's damn RELICS say the game plot is damn authentic! It's not the damn us, it's Relics!"
And please
Tell me, if you were.. let's say american. And some russian game studio creates a game about "second front", where american army (where you grandfather served) represented like stupids because of voice acting and dialogs, cowards who fight ONLY because of potential punishment, animals who kill surrendered men, burn civilians and overral discribed very negative. How would you react if your grandfather died in that war? Would you sit quiet while whole world will look at this crap?
No, you wouldn't, because you respect your family. And if you don't, you are unnormal.

If he was American that would change everything. After all they won the war while Soviets were raping and killing everyone they saw in front of them

Germans dealt with it.

Maybe now, finally 70 years later, its time for you tomdeal with it too.

Germans dealt with it.

Maybe now, finally 70 years later, its time for you tomdeal with it too.

I already stated to you in another post why am I offended. I have German, Polish Estonian and Lithuanian friends. I am fine with them.

I spent 20 years in international schools.

Moscow, Stockholm, Helsinki, Hamburg, Norwich and Luxemburg City.
I have vacationed in far more nations than that.

I have friends from all these nstions and more, and have certainly spent time with even more than that.

The issue is not your bigotry towards any particulsr nation. The issue is your own lack of recognition of the attrocities committed by the nation you just so happen to have a passport from.

5his stuff happened 70 years ago, and certwinly I have never raped, muredered or stolen from anyone (as I hope you havent either), nor has any of us lived i n the period entailing all that was involved in thatt age.

If Imgot to know that my grandfather had raped or murdered someone, regardless of whether it was in war or peace... guess how Imwould feel about that? I think you would feel the same. But as things are, its not just about your or my grandfather, but about REAL HISTORICAL FACTS.

As Ive stated before, Finland, my own beloved country and home, even though I lived abroad for 20 years, even thoug I am 50% Russian by descent and my Russian grandfather fought against the Soviets as a refug3e from the Revolution (and refused to change his surname to a finnish version, as most did, to avoid bigotry) even though I lived 5 years in Moscow from92, 3v2n though my other biologicaql grandfather was ostracised despite being a member of Academia for writing leids to Morgensterns poetry, I STILL DELIBERATELY acknwoledge and investigate the sins and attrocities of my nation.

Why?

Because even at its worst, that too is my heritage. I cannot and will not make apologees for tue wrong my nation has done. Nor can I fix it. Its happened, its the past.

BUT

The one thing I can do, is acknoweledge the suffering of those whom where done wrong by my nation. I cant fix it. Icanr correc4 it. I cant change it. But there is no way in hell I will ever forgive those of my nation who committed crimes, nor will I ignore them, and most certainy do my damndest to NEVER let them happen again.

No4 on my fucking watch!

I guess that's too much for them Relics to handle. We'd be glad for them doing the things mentioned above.

They've said they receive death threats. Yet they don't cooperate with the community. What the hell? If they wait for too long the petition organizers won't be able to calm down people.
This can get real ugly real soon.

We're not asking for much, please, Relics, do it!

Russian players send death threads to relic devs, because of the campaign? Did i read correct?

Any sympathy stops here.

Russian players send death threads to relic devs, because of the campaign? Did i read correct?

Any sympathy stops here.

Agreed. That goes way to fucking far.

I have to declare that I mean no offense to anyone.
Because some of the things that follow this statement are questionable.

At first I have to tell you that I'm a history teacher at school. So I guess I've earned my right to have a professional opinion on the subject. And as you can see I'm not 'zealous' or something.

Now let's get to the debating part.
If we're going to speak about proofs, I can give only the documentary sources that are in Russian. That would take a freaking lot of time to translate them to the English language. But they DO exist.

However there are NO documentary proofs on those 'evil NKVD machinegunner teams' ever existed on the battlefield. The reality is about them being guarding the army's supply lines from deserters and traitors. The really sick joke is that's said in the Order .227 that Relics are using as a source.

Btw, I've spotted a broken point there in the English version of the text.
It's here, in 2.b part. Russian words 'в непосредственном тылу' actually mean the 'at the supply lines'. It surely looks like being translated w/ a Google translator thing.
That has certain flaws.

So is the 'Scorched Earth' part, where Soviets are burning civil houses and their own troops. That wasn't right according to the Order. 428 that:
1. Was released after the game situation takes place (it's 17 Nov 1941);
2. Tells to make diversions deep in the Nazi occupied territories, BEHIND the enemy lines. It's also mentioned there to evacuate all the civilians before the diversion starts.
Ingame situation breaks every documentary evidence, but strongly resembles the Nazi actions on their all-out retreat from USSR in 1943/44.

So the people are just raging about the Nazi crimes blamed on Soviet soldiers.

Thanks for the response! You mention traitors and deserters in this post which certainly implies that some Soviet soldiers retreated. Earlier, you said that no Soviet soldiers ever retreated. How can you have deserters and traitors in such a situation?

Do you have any comment about politically-motivated history textbooks in Russia and Putin's recent efforts to minimize knowledge about the negative parts of Soviet involvement in WWII? I haven't examined primary sources myself, so I can't say whether you or the historian is more accurate, but at present I would say that the historian is more likely to have an objective view of the matter.

When I see an article like this about modern Russia, I greatly doubt the objectivity of Russian textbooks regarding anything that could be considered "patriotic."

I'm not saying that you're intentionally biased, but is it possible that the primary sources that the historian and the western scholarly community rely upon are ignored and/or concealed in Russian schools and scholarship with the aim of glorifying the "Great Patriotic War" instead of depicting all events, whether positive or negative? As a school teacher, I'm not sure whether you've examined western scholarship about the Soviet Union, and in doing so you might be able to figure out whether there are sources you're unaware of that support the historian's statements.

You haven't said yourself that western scholars intentionally view the Soviet Union negatively (in the present day), but other Russian posters have, and I want to respond to this in case it concerns you as well. Having studied European history at a major university in the United States, I can say that many of our scholars are not American (one of my history professors was Bulgarian) and that I have never met an American history professor who cares very much about nationalism and patriotism on a personal level. The vast majority of American professors are Democrats (large-scale studies have demonstrated this) and often have a negative view of American foreign policy and the American military's actions in the present day and in the past. They actively criticize the actions of the U.S. military in WWII, Vietnam, and Iraq. This differs substantially from history education in the United States at the high school (secondary) level, where history is taught in a more superficial and less critical manner (this is why I strongly differentiate between university professors and high school teachers -- on average, they will be educated in very different ways). In my experience, if a history professor in America makes a statement regarding historical data, there is no political motivation behind the statement at all -- they never even think about this.

Russian players send death threads to relic devs, because of the campaign? Did i read correct?

Any sympathy stops here.

Absolutely. But they are internet russians. I think normal russians are not like that. However the behavior of the russians on the forums and Metacritic will give most people a bad impression of russian players. People generally dislike ultra-nationalists from other countries. So in the end this behavior damages russia's reputation way more than any game's campaign story ever could....

Absolutely. But they are internet russians. I think normal russians are not like that. However the behavior of the russians on the forums and Metacritic will give most people a bad impression of russian players. People generally dislike ultra-nationalists from other countries. So in the end this behavior damages russia's reputation way more than any game's campaign story ever could....

Well said.

Remember that Relic made a game based on WW2 starring long gone Nazi-Germany and The lost Soviet Union, not Germany and Russia.

I can`t belive that Russians today get upset of Relics portrayal of the Ostfront and those brave and patriotic soldiers they show us. If they for one moment thought that the totalitarian regime and the officers this soldiers fighted for also should be praised, they must be out of their minds. A hard history lesson awaits them.

And by the way, everyone, please, stop always use "germans" - nazists were represented with lot of nations, and particulary in Stalingrad there were like 35% of germans and all other were from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy etc.

You ask to be taken seriously and show soviet soldiers respect.. And then proceed to piss on every single soldier who did not share the nazi sentiment. Fine we can call them Axis forces, Ostheer or Wehrmacht, but please have the courtesy to be smart enough to not call them nazi.

By proxy, your own words could be reversed to call every single soviet soldier some really nasty things based on the actions of some. Naturally we'd just see more death threats from the internet army of people in the worlds smallest shoes, so let's refrain from that.

The_Riddler:

My analysis of the European Union was a general one, not an in-depth one. There's a lot to it that I don't understand, for sure, but in layman's terms it explains more or less how Europe is suffering some of these woes. There are cultural, religious, political and very specific economical aspects involved in the Political Integrations of Europe, and some critics could even say, in its failure (this last part is very debatable).

As far as war goes: yes it is a learning curve. Just because human beings keep engaging in wars, doesn'tt mean they haven't learned positive things form them. Let me give you some examples to strengthen my point:

-Human Rights. They were, in large part, based around atrocities in wars, amongst other situations. Sure, there's still violations left and right, but trust me: the world is far safer today, than it was in the feudal ages, or even the renaissance.

-Less casualties. Even if were to exaggerate the casualties in today's conflicts, modern warfare causes much reduced casualties. They are still too high, and there are still atrocities, but they are much, much more isolated than before. In feudal Japan, the very fabric of society was based around constant warfare. During Attila the Hun's time, waves upon waves of soldiers simply died. The reason for this, is that our weaponry now provides much better force multiplication (a single soldier can wield a light machine gun which in past eras would've required several armed men to just match the same firepower).

Both World Wars were a BIG eye opener in the way we fight wars. Not only was chivalry sent out the window, but a semi-mandatory body of law was set to regulate them. Yes, countries still break these laws (such as illegal weaponry), but International Scrutiny plays a much bigger role today, than it did before. This is the reason why military superpowers remain "friendly to the world" even as they wage war: they can't fight them all.

Unless a country shoots itself into a Total War policy, wars today are much more limited. Look at NATO conflicts, for example: The U.S. (and other miltiary superpowers) could obliterate an average opposing force very, very fast if it held nothing back, but international pressure would ensue. It's now a game of cloak and dagger.

That evolution, is all the result of lessons learned through warfare. Human beings have only truly been around for a very small amount, and while sometimes we repeat the same mistakes, for the most part we do learn.

Russian players send death threads to relic devs, because of the campaign? Did i read correct?

Any sympathy stops here.

Well I don't think that's true. We've never got a clue on that, it's just words, I guess.