Dear Relic, can I have a word please? (Russian history)

...............Another example which I personally researched were the way Vietnam War veterans were portrayed in movies (broken, psychotic, killers, physically or mentally fractured) and what those films teach Americans who never experienced it for themselves. Not everyone from Vietnam was a "babykiller", Rambo, or Lt. Dan, or on drugs. There was no evidence of anyone ever being spit on when they returned home. You wouldn't know that from some of the more popular movies about Vietnam.

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I think it is inappropriate to introduce such a broad analogy from an entirely different war into this thread: by all means atart something in the scrapyard along these lines. But honestly, I think you may be on the wrong tack here. As, however, it would derail the thread, I am saying no more at this stage.

You should've taken the hint when your post was removed 2 times.

its a game. so it doesnt have to be realistic.
its a story that portrays a little tiny bit of a pice of WW2. dont expect it to show the whole huge picture.
actually, i can understand, that you are upset that germans arent shown to be evil in this game, but from my perspective, it is still clear ( im from germany, a day without hearing "the nazis were so bad" is a nonexisting day). and some sowjets, especially the generals were monsters, i mean order 227 existed! if you look at the actual numers of fallen soldiers, its like 20 million sowjets to 3 million german soldiers.

its a game. so it doesnt have to be realistic.
its a story that portrays a little tiny bit of a pice of WW2. dont expect it to show the whole huge picture.
actually, i can understand, that you are upset that germans arent shown to be evil in this game, but from my perspective, it is still clear ( im from germany, a day without hearing "the nazis were so bad" is a nonexisting day). and some sowjets, especially the generals were monsters, i mean order 227 existed! if you look at the actual numers of fallen soldiers, its like 20 million sowjets to 3 million german soldiers.

The point of view of the story is from the Soviet perspective, and in fact from a single Soviet soldier. It's not the sort of story where the POV shifts, so the Germans are kept at a distance as the enemies and their story isn't touched upon.

They're like the shark in Jaws. You don't get their view because the story isn't about them.

ww2 is just a very precarious topic and it should be discussed about.

I think it is inappropriate to introduce such a broad analogy from an entirely different war into this thread: by all means atart something in the scrapyard along these lines. But honestly, I think you may be on the wrong tack here. As, however, it would derail the thread, I am saying no more at this stage.

My argument is that the OPs questions raises an interesting discussion point about the nature of a cultural text and the role it plays beyond being a "game" or a "movie". I knew how this community would respond to him, I was right, and I was specifically giving examples in other media in which it might as well that might give some agency to his side.

They're like the shark in Jaws. You don't get their view because the story isn't about them.

Where does Relic get all these comparisons

YO, company that wants to make money. I have a complaint about your video game. The video game doesn't have a documentary about war crimes. I'm not buying the game.

This is going to be a thought-out and long post. You have been warned.

I'll say, that even as a Westerner, the campaign left a bad taste in my mouth. I did not enjoy playing as the Russians, given how they are portrayed. Is that portrayal accurate though? Certain facts are indisputable, and the reaction to it is evidence that Russians are still trying to process their own history.

Do I think Relic's portrayal is an accurate representation of what it was like to be a solider in the Soviet army? No, in fact. I think they went overboard with a typically Western perspective that shows how difficult this war is to understand, even today, for Russians and Westerners.

Can anyone but a Russian understand what it was like to be fighting for the very survival of your country, while at the same time being led by one of the most brutal dictators of the 20th century? Did the average soldier consider Stalin to be a good leader (I think they did, actually) and the order 227 unnecessary and cruel? What was it really like? How can we even begin to understand this unless Russians explain?

I think we just don't understand. I think Relic certainly didn't understand and bit off far more than it could chew. For Westerners, it is actually easier to understand Nazi Germany than Stalin's Russia. Sure, the Nazis were fanatic, genocidal xenophobes, but they did not kill blonde, blue-eyed Germans. At heart, they were nationalists, pure and simple. But Russians were killing Russians by the millions, all under the guidance of an equally cruel dictator, and they waged their war in a way that made clear the life of the individual Russian was worth absolutely nothing in comparison to the goal of winning and pushing back the Germans.

We don't understand the collectivist mindset of Soviet Russia that led to the state of affairs portrayed in the game. We don't understand the continued Russian need for a strongman that has been commented on by many historians, and is still in evidence today with the popularity of Putin, despite his political machinations that have made democracy in Russia a thinly-veiled joke.

Nothing Relic portrays in the campaign is wrong. But I sure as hell don't think they got it right either. The Russian soul is far too complex a subject for a video game. In any case, Relic would have been criticized however they handled the campaign: if they had papered over the war's realities, and made every Russian officer a hero, they would have been vilified by the Western press for avoiding order 227 and the barbarism of Stalin's Russia as well.

The Russian soul is far too complex a subject for a video game.

Nicely put.

If you wanted to have word with relic, I suggest e-mailing them directly.

Otherwise I suggest naming the forum topics more accurately. For example, "Everyone look at me! I'm on top my soapbox!"

It can stem a good cultural discussion. However, pople can't and shouldn't take it to heart.

Iran said 300 depicts the Persians in a bad light, and it is a VERY inaccurate representation of the Greeks/Spartans as believers of freedom, when they actually sported a contingent of over 900 Helots during the Battle of Themopylae.

I could argue that every single depiction of the Battle of El Alamo in popular media is negative towards the Mexicans.

We have to remember it is a work of fiction. It is a subjective work of entertainment, and nothing more. Its not a documentary, and no matter how authentic it paints itself to be, accuracy is not the main goal.

PS: You can never truly win in a work of fiction, especially about war. Liberals will say war is a horrible subject matter, conservative military enthusiats will sya it is inaccurate, etc...

Awesome wall of text

I think that the USSR in general is hard to comprehend for a lot of westerners.

I think I need to play through the campaign before I continue in this discussion. Though, it seems like I'm bound to be disappointed by the story.

I understand your argument, but I think there was just very little attention paid to the German perspective in the campaign rather than any attempt to make the Germans look neutral or good. There was no discussion of civilian-related atrocities on either side, and I don't think that sort of thing needs to be included in an action-oriented video game.

The only real difference between the depictions of the Soviets and Germans in game is in how the officers of each faction treat their men. And it seems quite historically accurate that the Soviets were far worse in this respect. I didn't get the sense that the Soviet soldiers themselves were bad, if anything they were quite heroic. The officers and leaders are the ones you come to dislike.

+1

That is a really good post and that's the feel I get from not only COH2 but also COH1

In war, on the battlefields, politics does not exist. Only the cruel realities of war and the common soldier.

The COH2 campaign mostly depicted soldiers and officers. Yes, there were some political elements like Order 227 in it, but the main relationship was between soldiers and officers.

The OP would probably agree that the German soldier was treated far better by his officer than his russian counterpart.

There's also the fact that a game or movie cannot properly convey the horrors of war.

You hear westerners complain when they see videos of Russians and Chechens cutting each others throats(literally) and yet, you can find videos of NATO troops committing atrocities and very unprofessional behavior in and out of the battlefield, as well. It's not acceptable, but given the circumstances one can understand why it happens.

The problem is that there's players taking a fictional story to heart, thinking that it is meant to degrade their cultural identity, when that is not the case.

look at metacritic, tons of Russians posting with the same sentiment. personally I wouldn't be getting my panties in a bunch over a video game.

Where does Relic get all these comparisons

I know right? It`s like they were working on a comparisons Guide book instead of the game itself for so long.

YO, company that wants to make money. I have a complaint about your video game. The video game doesn't have a documentary about war crimes. I'm not buying the game.

Can we already ban this guy? he is more annoying than Barton

Nicely put.

This is why I am proud I am Russian.

TL;DR General Reply here so if you are interested read

As for the mindset of Russians, we are proud people, although some of the other nations hate us for our mere existence we do not care, we are used to it and most of us are really polite and will meet you with open heart. I am not talking about our new generation who are spoiled and ignorant. I am talking about the old generations and the families that keep the tradition of raising their kids they way they got raised.

And as a proud nation most of us will give their lives for our country and countrymen.
If you are into history and you particularly read about the Russian nation you will see we almost never had Great leaders, maybe some Tsars and probably Lenin. Also even when the Roman Empire was still standing they were some conflicts with the Slavic people and the Orthodox Roman Empire, the historians of that time said that the Empire have never seen fiercest warriors than the Slavs who will push forward no matter what you put against them.

We do not fear death if we know that if we don`t win this war same will happen to our wives, sisters and kids.
Maybe people consider the Soviet people who fought the Germans bad or portray them as mindless monkeys and savage beasts, but do not forget those monkeys and beasts fought an enemy who conquered Europe in no time.
And if you blame those people for the war crimes they have done, I ask you what would you have done after seeing your countrymen who were civilians, innocent people, burned alive and had their breast cut off? What would you feel against your enemy? I will tell you what would you feel, Hate, the only thing you would want is to kill your enemy make them feel what those innocents felt.

This may sound patriotic.
And I agree I am a patriot, but this is all true. If you want to consider Soviets beasts go on we are used to it. But I couldn`t care less how the game portrays them.