Change damage profile of all lmgs

I believe that there should be a damage nerf for all lmgs (bar included) at point blank range. This will give assault infantry the upper hand in close range. This is mainly concerning pgrens vs double upgraded riflemen or tommies. Shocks never had problems vs lets say lmg grens, or lmg obers at close range due to the armor and 6man squad. It simply isn't realistic that you can fire a heavy caliber weapon at point blank and expect to hit your target as much as you would in medium range. The recoil is massive on lmgs.

Late in the game, the thing that strangles Ostheer (if it survives into the late game) is pop cap. Both USF and UKF inf outclass grens yet riflemen take the same pop cap and tommies take only one more. So you get pgrens which should beat double bar riflemen at close range. So pgrens usually drop a man trying to close the distance. Fine. Now pgrens close in, three men with assault rifles vs 5 men, 2 with lmgs which in reality would have a lower rate of fire at close range than assault rifles due to the recoil and 3 men with semi autos. Pgrens should win that fight. But that isn't the case half the time. And if you don't close in immediately you risk losing more than one man when closing the distance which will guarantee that the pgrens lose the engagement. So there you go, a 9 pop cap unit is beaten by a 7 pop cap unit. Why do I only care about pop cap? Cuz Ostheer needs ample pop cap for its superior tanks (even though many of its tanks were severely nerfed.) If I don't have the pop cap for my tanks, where is Ostheer's supposedly superior late game? USF have plenty of inf and therefore Ost must at least try to match the number of inf squads cuz u just can't rely on just tanks to fight USF inf now that their at guns and jacksons have been buffed and they always had the easiest access to handheld at. And tier 3 tanks have garbage anti-inf abilities. (p4 is only good after getting vet 2) Therefore, as Ost you must rely on infantry to do most of the anti-inf work. Don't mention tier 4 cuz I'm only talking about 1v1.

If your response is that pgrens shouldn't defeat a unit with 120 munis invested, my answer is that munis come easily for USF. The map control you have for most of the game and the fact that you don't need (or use) mines. Ostheer is almost always fighting with less map hence less resources for most of the game.

All in all, I'm saying that USF riflemen are too easy to micro. What kind of infantry is potent at ALL ranges? Riflemen have almost no weaknesses. There is no optimal range for engagement for grens other than absolute max range vs riflemen and what kind of idiot USF player would allow you to fight his inf at max range. Of course he will close in. And if you give a Katitof kind of response telling me to build an mg42, well sure it may work early game, but in the mid and late game, it is the hardest unit to keep alive (other than sniper and 222.) You can do the experiment yourself. Put a lmg gren behind sandbags and charge the position with double bar riflemen. The grens will lose everytime. So the difference is 40mp and 60 munis and the Ostheer player is supposed to lose every engagement even with superior positioning? Please. So do pgrens have an optimal range of engagement vs riflemen? Unless you can position them behind a tight corner, you'll need to close in and if you close in the pgrens may still lose at least half the time. Does Ost have any elite inf that every other faction has at least doctrinally? Stormtroopers are the same as pgrens if upgraded with stgs making them just as hard to micro.

This is a long rant, so in conclusion I think if Ostheer is tired of the USF rifle horde charging their grens with their feel no pain super reduced received accuracy trigger happy rambo double upgraded riflemen, pgrens should be made a VIABLE alternative and hence should be given a DEFINITIVE advantage over double bar riflemen at close even if it is 3 vs 5. And the way to do that is to nerf the damage output to all lmgs and point blank so its not just a USF nerf. Riflemen will still be very powerful at midrange, which is what riflemen are supposed to be used as, because they have always been used as assault infantry vs grens. Last time i checked riflemen can beat grens if they close the distance to a midrange engagement so they don't need to get into a point blank engagement to beat grens.

Allies infantry are allowed to have 6-man squads but Axis are not, UK and USF are allowed to carry around the best weapons while axis shouldn't, UK and USF deserve to have the best infantry at Vet3 but axis don't! Conclusion? you already know

i dont think that this is necessarily an lmg problem, as lmg 42 and 34 and dp28 are surely fine

the problem lies withing ostheer and pzgrens, ost has no good offensive unit. i just think that pzgrens without schrecks need a severe buff, for a unit hidden behind tech and 340 manpower expensive, they just suck.

I thought the optimal range for pgrens is medium range.

I also thought that someone also proved that vet3 pgrens beat vet3 bar rifles.

Can anyone confirm and i don't mean ingame opinions.

Let's look at some stats!

Durability:

Squad	Models	Target Size	Vet 2 Bonus	Vet 3 Bonus
Riflemen	5	0.97	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown	0.8x RA, 1.3x Accuracy
Grenadiers	4	0.91	1.4x Accuracy	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown
Panzergrenadiers	4	0.8	0.71x RA, 0.75x Cooldown	1.4x Accuracy
Infantry Sections	4-5	0.8	0.76x RA	1.2x Accuracy, 0.8x Cooldown, 2 SLEs

DPS:

Weapon	Range 5	Range 10	Range 15	Range 20	Range 25	Range 30	Range 35
M1 Garand	5.84	4.33	3.40	2.80	2.34	1.97	1.67
BAR	13.97	10.45	7.99	6.97	6.03	5.17	4.37
Gren Kar98K	5.07	4.37	3.82	3.37	3.00	2.59	2.26
Gren LMG42	6.97	7.56	8.10	8.57	8.99	9.26	9.20
Panzergren MP44	15.35	12.81	10.10	7.69	5.46	3.38	1.44
Lee-Enfield	4.59	4.26	3.97	3.71	3.48	3.17	2.89
Bren	4.92	5.52	6.11	6.68	7.25	7.71	7.92
Scoped Lee-Enfield	5.71	5.19	4.74	4.33	3.97	3.57	3.22

First and most obvious: the BAR and Bren are not superweapons. The BAR is roughly equivalent to a Panzergrenadier MP44 with slightly better long-range and slightly worse short-range capabilities. The Bren is strictly worse than the Grenadier LMG42, especially when you consider that the DPS stats for UKF weapons include the cover bonus.

We can see that vet-3, single-BAR Riflemen are easily killed by Panzergrenadiers at short ranges while having the advantage in a long-range fight. With two BARs, Riflemen are still worse than Panzergrenadiers at short range but have somewhat closed the gap and have a greater advantage at long range.

The Infantry Section-Grenadier contest goes much as one would expect. IS with a single Bren have roughly equal long-range DPS to Grenadiers when in cover and will win due to their superior durability. The Grenadier squad will still lose at short-range but will fare slightly better. Fully upgraded Infantry Sections are an Obersoldaten-level anti-infantry threat although Obersoldaten scale further with veterancy (2 Brens = ~LMG34, 2 SLEs + LE with vet = ~3 Ober KAR98Ks).

Hope this helps.

Let's look at some stats!

Durability:

Squad	Models	Target Size	Vet 2 Bonus	Vet 3 Bonus
Riflemen	5	0.97	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown	0.8x RA, 1.3x Accuracy
Grenadiers	4	0.91	1.4x Accuracy	0.77x RA, 0.8x Cooldown
Panzergrenadiers	4	0.8	0.71x RA, 0.75x Cooldown	1.4x Accuracy
Infantry Sections	4-5	0.8	0.76x RA	1.2x Accuracy, 0.8x Cooldown, 2 SLEs

DPS:

Weapon	Range 5	Range 10	Range 15	Range 20	Range 25	Range 30	Range 35
M1 Garand	5.84	4.33	3.40	2.80	2.34	1.97	1.67
BAR	13.97	10.45	7.99	6.97	6.03	5.17	4.37
Gren Kar98K	5.07	4.37	3.82	3.37	3.00	2.59	2.26
Gren LMG42	6.97	7.56	8.10	8.57	8.99	9.26	9.20
Panzergren MP44	15.35	12.81	10.10	7.69	5.46	3.38	1.44
Lee-Enfield	4.59	4.26	3.97	3.71	3.48	3.17	2.89
Bren	4.92	5.52	6.11	6.68	7.25	7.71	7.92
Scoped Lee-Enfield	5.71	5.19	4.74	4.33	3.97	3.57	3.22

First and most obvious: the BAR and Bren are not superweapons. The BAR is roughly equivalent to a Panzergrenadier MP44 with slightly better long-range and slightly worse short-range capabilities. The Bren is strictly worse than the Grenadier LMG42, especially when you consider that the DPS stats for UKF weapons include the cover bonus.

We can see that vet-3, single-BAR Riflemen are easily killed by Panzergrenadiers at short ranges while having the advantage in a long-range fight. With two BARs, Riflemen are still worse than Panzergrenadiers at short range but have somewhat closed the gap and have a greater advantage at long range.

The Infantry Section-Grenadier contest goes much as one would expect. IS with a single Bren have roughly equal long-range DPS to Grenadiers when in cover and will win due to their superior durability. The Grenadier squad will still lose at short-range but will fare slightly better. Fully upgraded Infantry Sections are an Obersoldaten-level anti-infantry threat although Obersoldaten scale further with veterancy (2 Brens = ~LMG34, 2 SLEs + LE with vet = ~3 Ober KAR98Ks).

Hope this helps.

Thank you very much, while you are at it, can you give the approximate RA values at vet3 next to dps?

Thank you very much, while you are at it, can you give the approximate RA values at vet3 next to dps?

Easy enough, just multiply the target size by every RA bonus:

Riflemen: 0.59725 RA, ~669 effective health

Grenadiers: 0.7007 RA, ~457 effective health

Panzergrenadiers: 0.568 RA, ~563 effective health

Infantry Sections: 0.608 RA, ~526-658 effective health

Much appreciated

I don't really think the problem is the BAR, the real thing is their innate long-range DPS and probably still the vet 3 RA. Vanilla Rifles are basically guaranteed to beat vanilla Grens at every range without a large cover disadvantage, and with the 81mm mortar complementing them now that can't really be justified. Double BARs continue this trend and leave the timeframe where Grens can hope to beat them at long-range to the initial LMG42s, combined with Rifles' vet 3. Knock off say 0.3 DPS per man on Rifles and maybe 5% RA at vet 3 and Grens will compete reliably at long-range (though it shouldn't be by a ton) against them at all stages of the game as they should since Rifles definitely don't have crappy support anymore.

Now double M1919A6s, those things are an unredeemable concept.

Oh and ISes - I don't fucking know

Also, Rifles beat Grens at every range, not just mid and closer.

Allies infantry are allowed to have 6-man squads but Axis are not, UK and USF are allowed to carry around the best weapons while axis shouldn't, UK and USF deserve to have the best infantry at Vet3 but axis don't! Conclusion? you already know

I thought the optimal range for pgrens is medium range.

I also thought that someone also proved that vet3 pgrens beat vet3 bar rifles.

Can anyone confirm and i don't mean ingame opinions.

It's comparative, they gain more from going to mid-range (LMGs, bolt-actions) and less from going to close-range (SMGs) than some other weapons. They still use the general idea of more DPS from being closer as nearly all weapons, but the distinctions in practice are there.

Tried it myself, at mid and close range they do very reliably. Pretty sure they'll win by 2 models even at mid-range. Therefore the issue falls in the XP disadvantage they'll certainly have.

Easy enough, just multiply the target size by every RA bonus:

Riflemen: 0.59725 RA, ~669 effective health

Grenadiers: 0.7007 RA, ~457 effective health

Panzergrenadiers: 0.568 RA, ~563 effective health

Infantry Sections: 0.608 RA, ~526-658 effective health

Good job on compiling the stats!

One thing though:
- Maybe you can have a separate table for Vet3 DPS values? (It's not a straightforward thing to account for cooldown veterancy for this). You can grab stats off Cruzz's DPS sheet-site-thing.