Maxim vs OKW issue

I would like to talk about an issue, which i think a is design flaw. The problem is OKW lack of MG counter tools / abilities. This makes them extremely vulnerable against maxim spam.

Imagine a Soviet vs OKW situation where soviet player goes for T2 and build 3 maxims. No matter what an OKW player brings out from T0, if the maxims cover each other they will either suppress anything, or damage.

Even if a volks squad can crawl up to nade range, their incendiary nade do damage over time... maxim can move out anytime, unless the soviet player is sleeping.

What can OKW do? Two thing:

• Go for LeIG, which cost you 300MP + locked behind 300/40 teching. Still countering multiple maxims with 1 LeIG wont do the trick unless the soviet player is sleeping.
  
• The other option is the Luchs. 300/65 light tank locked behind 300/60 teching. In case you managed to capture and hold a fuel point with your T0, and go for a more expensive method of countering maxims, the soviet player can build a ZiS anytime, since its in the same building as maxim.
  

Comparing to these, the Soviet T2 costs 160MP and 20FU or something... rest comes from manpower only.

I have two idea to solve this issue:

1.
Give OKW proper MG counter tools: smoke nade for infantry, kubel ride, T0 mortar with smoke... whatever, but something...

2.
...or change the Maxim. I think its current 260MP price is a bit high compared to other MGs. I always suggested to either decrease the crew to 4 men (like other MGs) or remove/reduce their ability of point capture. If they cannot capture, people cant rely on maxims ONLY. Ofcourse their price should reflect their new performance. 240MP or 230...

I could write a long post saying how you are wrong, but long story short; get gud, that is it.

Yea, we nerfed Maxim, nearly killed it, but it's still not enough for us.

I would say, that it is 100% L2P issue. It is not immortal, it's not that hard to outflank it, it's not that hard to counter it. Even for OKW, which now has in T0 enourmosly much combat units. T0 AT, T0 infantry of all kinds, T0 fast cap-car...

About your ideas:

1. Give OKW proper MG counter tools. OKW has enough units right now in all tiers for to deal with all kinds of enemy units. Kubel is proper HMG counter if you know how to use it. LeIG is fine enough, also. Maxim is not placed in T0, it comes not instantly and a lot of soviet players prefer now to get T1 with Penals instead of T2, and USSR has not enough resourses at start for to build both tiers (like USF in CoH 1 could do), so... OKW has everything they need for to deal with HMGs. All other problems in l2p. Giving them mortar will be ridiculous, such as smoke nades.

2. Change the maxim is good idea, but absolutely not in ways, which you suggest. I agree that 260 is really high price for not-T0 HMG, which is also designed originally to be spammed. Decreasing crew numbers should affect it's combat efficiency - it should get wider fireing arc then. And removce point capturing... why? Why not to remove it from ALL weapon teams in game, it sounds more reasonable, than removing that only from Maxim.

I said before and I say again - Maxim should be fully redesigned, Relic should refuse from idea of "offenisve HMG", which is 100% broken, and such threads proving that again and again. 4 men crew, wide arc of fire, good areal supression, slow setup/packup - that's what Maxim should have. Such redesign would solve ALL problems, which connected or based on that poor HMG. And only thing, which stops Relic from that is an idea of "Assymetrical design of faction". But it doesn't work like you want, that's sad, but it's truth. There were no problems with common design of HMGs in CoH 1, why would it be problem here? CoH 1 factions were even more assymetrically designed, yet similar designed HMG teams were fine in that and ruined nothing.

Make Maxim = MG-42 in general design and ALL problems will go away, seriously. And no need to make OKW more powerful, or Maxim more crippled.

Yea, we nerfed Maxim, nearly killed it, but it's still not enough for us.

I would say, that it is 100% L2P issue. It is not immortal, it's not that hard to outflank it, it's not that hard to counter it. Even for OKW, which now has in T0 enourmosly much combat units. T0 AT, T0 infantry of all kinds, T0 fast cap-car...

About your ideas:

1. Give OKW proper MG counter tools. OKW has enough units right now in all tiers for to deal with all kinds of enemy units. Kubel is proper HMG counter if you know how to use it. LeIG is fine enough, also. Maxim is not placed in T0, it comes not instantly and a lot of soviet players prefer now to get T1 with Penals instead of T2, and USSR has not enough resourses at start for to build both tiers (like USF in CoH 1 could do), so... OKW has everything they need for to deal with HMGs. All other problems in l2p. Giving them mortar will be ridiculous, such as smoke nades.

2. Change the maxim is good idea, but absolutely not in ways, which you suggest. I agree that 260 is really high price for not-T0 HMG, which is also designed originally to be spammed. Decreasing crew numbers should affect it's combat efficiency - it should get wider fireing arc then. And removce point capturing... why? Why not to remove it from ALL weapon teams in game, it sounds more reasonable, than removing that only from Maxim.

I said before and I say again - Maxim should be fully redesigned, Relic should refuse from idea of "offenisve HMG", which is 100% broken, and such threads proving that again and again. 4 men crew, wide arc of fire, good areal supression, slow setup/packup - that's what Maxim should have. Such redesign would solve ALL problems, which connected or based on that poor HMG. And only thing, which stops Relic from that is an idea of "Assymetrical design of faction". But it doesn't work like you want, that's sad, but it's truth. There were no problems with common design of HMGs in CoH 1, why would it be problem here? CoH 1 factions were even more assymetrically designed, yet similar designed HMG teams were fine in that and ruined nothing.

Make Maxim = MG-42 in general design and ALL problems will go away, seriously. And no need to make OKW more powerful, or Maxim more crippled.

This was gold.

This was gold.

he is kinda right, but the way you counter is not fighting it directly, but going behind lines and capping.

also, have you ever seen the kind of damage multiple kubels do?

This was gold.

And what's wrong with that? Kubel may be used as counter for weapon crews, at least in early. I saw how people countered HMGs with that, worked fine. Of course requires some microing but... I don't think, that we want to make game TOO easy for OKW.

In any case, I said my point - I also think, that there is problem, but it is fully in Maxim broken by default design. That's not really about OKW.

he is kinda right, but the way you counter is not fighting it directly, but going behind lines and capping.

also, have you ever seen the kind of damage multiple kubels do?

yeah it counters them the way u simply dodge them also multiple kubels are strong open vs infantry but still not maxims or other mgs.

And what's wrong with that? Kubel may be used as counter for weapon crews, at least in early. I saw how people countered HMGs with that, worked fine. Of course requires some microing but... I don't think, that we want to make game TOO easy for OKW.

In any case, I said my point - I also think, that there is problem, but it is fully in Maxim broken by default design. That's not really about OKW.

The problem is that the maxims crew will destroy the kubel, since u have to keep turning it to avoid the maxim gun fire.

Kubel is proper HMG counter if you know how to use it.

I am not sure if you're serious about that, or actually attempting to derail/troll the topic. A Kuebel is not a hard counter for any HMG, HMG just eat Kuebels for breakfast, and HMGs redeploy faster than any Kuebel can move/rotate around.

Hey if a bren carrier can punish an aggressive mg42, a kubel can punish a maxim.

Although I agree the proper 'counter' is to cap with the kubel where there aren't maxims. The fact that it caps and can't be suppressed is very useful for okw.

If you catch any HMG off guard, any unit, even the tiny rear echelon, can become quite the hard-counter. Just make sure to use a handful of units to distract and flank. You could even say that a 222 is a hard counter for a KT if you know how to use it.. But that not the topic of the thread, and clearly just an attempt to mess up the topic at hand.

I am not sure if you're serious about that, or actually attempting to derail/troll the topic. A Kuebel is not a hard counter for any HMG, HMG just eat Kuebels for breakfast, and HMGs redeploy faster than any Kuebel can move/rotate around.

if you are trying to dislogde a mg with a single unit, you are doing it wrong.

volks one side, kubel on the other, since maxims are so clunky and slow the opponent will either have to retreat of risk losing his gun.

Kubels have extremely low dps. Combined with the insanely slow turn speed, you won't force a maxim to retreat even with perfect micro. Not to mention the case when the maxim is in a building. Of course using different units to flank it is a different discussion, but then the Kubel is no better than any other unit.

Having said that, the Luchs/leIG are adequate counters imo.

if you are trying to dislogde a mg with a single unit, you are doing it wrong.

volks one side, kubel on the other, since maxims are so clunky and slow the opponent will either have to retreat of risk losing his gun.

If you catch any HMG off guard, any unit, even the tiny rear echelon, can become quite the hard-counter. Just make sure to use a handful of units to distract and flank.

The problem is that the maxims crew will destroy the kubel, since u have to keep turning it to avoid the maxim gun fire.

Maxim crew are not equiped with PTRS, their damage will be random, and it won't be so high. + You may not even avoid from Maxim fire, since it doesn't have AP rounds or high penetration by default. Force it to turn, move on it your infantry - it will either retreat or be dead. And that's only 1 example of tactician genius, which could be used by OKW player against retarded USSR Maxim spammer. Again, keep in mind - Kubel is T0, Maxim is T2 with pretty long producing time (now). Keep in mind, that if your opponent makes >2 maxims it's... somthing about 700 MP invested in AI-ONLY unit, which will be easy countered by med-game OKW units, like same Luchs. Maximspam slows progression of your opponent, cos he will spend MP at 1-purpouse unit. He won't have enough MP for Cons, for AT guns, for whatever else... I think that is strange to think, that "Maxim spam is cheap imbatactic". It may be imba, but definitely not cheap and not uncounterable.

In any case, I think it is not bad, but even good, that OKW players have to think and use that tactician genius for to deal with USSR. Sometime ago USF had to use that genius for to deal with Ostheer HMGs and it was fine for everyone. Why if it was fine for USF to spend helluva micro and resourses on countering 1 unit, it can't be fine for OKW? #AxisHypocrisy?

if you are trying to dislogde a mg with a single unit, you are doing it wrong.

volks one side, kubel on the other, since maxims are so clunky and slow the opponent will either have to retreat of risk losing his gun.

Thats why i said multiple maxims covering and supporting each other. Its easier to build and set up properly 3 maxim gun than carry out a proper flanking maneuver against multiple maxims. Kubels got destroyed by other maxims while infantry got pinned.

Honestly when your first hardcounter units are LeIG and Luchs, there is a problem. All other faction has snipers, clowncars, mortars, smoke... most of them even more than 1 counter.

Yea, we nerfed Maxim, nearly killed it, but it's still not enough for us.

I would say, that it is 100% L2P issue. It is not immortal, it's not that hard to outflank it, it's not that hard to counter it. Even for OKW, which now has in T0 enourmosly much combat units. T0 AT, T0 infantry of all kinds, T0 fast cap-car...

About your ideas:

1. Give OKW proper MG counter tools. OKW has enough units right now in all tiers for to deal with all kinds of enemy units. Kubel is proper HMG counter if you know how to use it. LeIG is fine enough, also. Maxim is not placed in T0, it comes not instantly and a lot of soviet players prefer now to get T1 with Penals instead of T2, and USSR has not enough resourses at start for to build both tiers (like USF in CoH 1 could do), so... OKW has everything they need for to deal with HMGs. All other problems in l2p. Giving them mortar will be ridiculous, such as smoke nades.

2. Change the maxim is good idea, but absolutely not in ways, which you suggest. I agree that 260 is really high price for not-T0 HMG, which is also designed originally to be spammed. Decreasing crew numbers should affect it's combat efficiency - it should get wider fireing arc then. And removce point capturing... why? Why not to remove it from ALL weapon teams in game, it sounds more reasonable, than removing that only from Maxim.

I said before and I say again - Maxim should be fully redesigned, Relic should refuse from idea of "offenisve HMG", which is 100% broken, and such threads proving that again and again. 4 men crew, wide arc of fire, good areal supression, slow setup/packup - that's what Maxim should have. Such redesign would solve ALL problems, which connected or based on that poor HMG. And only thing, which stops Relic from that is an idea of "Assymetrical design of faction". But it doesn't work like you want, that's sad, but it's truth. There were no problems with common design of HMGs in CoH 1, why would it be problem here? CoH 1 factions were even more assymetrically designed, yet similar designed HMG teams were fine in that and ruined nothing.

Make Maxim = MG-42 in general design and ALL problems will go away, seriously. And no need to make OKW more powerful, or Maxim more crippled.

I wrote you reasons, and all you said is "l2p". I was talking about hard-counter or MG avoiding tools like smoke nades, and you said what? T0 AT? Against maxim? kiddin me? and infantry? WHAT? Remove USF mortar and smoke nade, and lets check what could they do against 6 men MG squad. Fast capture car? great.. capture... thanks, i will remember these advices on my next match..

Please, i am trying hard to take this thread seriously, but i can't.

I wrote you reasons, and all you said is "l2p". I was talking about hard-counter or MG avoiding tools like smoke nades, and you said what? T0 AT? Against maxim? kiddin me? and infantry? WHAT? Remove USF mortar and smoke nade, and lets check what could they do against 6 men MG squad. Fast capture car? great.. capture... thanks, i will remember these advices on my next match..

Don't you think, that it will be ridiculously OP to have faction, which have counters of ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING at very start of the game? That's what you suggest for OKW, actually.

Same USF maybe now is too good against HMGs with all that smoke, mortars and whatever else but... pretty vunerable to light vechicles at start, cos they have no AT guns until T3 and I pretty rarely see, that people getting zooks in early - don't have so much ammo for that... Same it is for UKF.

I think, it would be acceptable to change LeIG and Puphen positions. Make LeIG T0 (with very small price increasing maybe) and Puphen T1 unit. Then OKW will be less vunerable to HMGs but more vunerable to early light vechicles too, I agree on that exchange.

But again - if Maxim would be defensive and not offensive HMG = not spammable support unit, all problems would be solved. Cos... I don't see, that you mentioned in your posts, that OKW has problems with Vikkers, which is pretty defensive HMG and also not-spammable because of that. If I understand right, you have only problems with Maxims, right? Or Vikkers is also an issue, that's pretty important point. Will help me to understand, what suggestion would be better for that case.

In any case, I think it is not bad, but even good, that OKW players have to think and use that tactician genius for to deal with USSR. Sometime ago USF had to use that genius for to deal with Ostheer HMGs and it was fine for everyone. Why if it was fine for USF to spend helluva micro and resourses on countering 1 unit, it can't be fine for OKW? #AxisHypocrisy?

Sometime ago USF also did not have a mortar which counters MGs. If the micro was too tough for one faction why shouldn't it be changed with the others?

Exchanging smoke for the AT snare on panzerfusilers would help give OKW more options to deal with MGs if they chose that doctrine.

Please, i am trying hard to take this thread seriously, but i can't.

Nonono, this thread is gold - the best "fruits" of community, all in one place, such entertainment, much wow.