SU-85; The Thread

Oh boo hoo, you can't attack move win with Panther spam anymore. The horror.

Acting like Su85 is some god unit that can't be touched is laughable. Play better.

Well as for the "play better stuff": I´m Level 55 right now. I can win with both factions. I definitely have more wins than losses (if that´s the all mighty indicator for being good at this game) . The example of the Su-85 being op mostly comes from me using it. All I have to do is hitting the reverse command (so pro) and win any tank engagement. As a decent player I never have my Su-85 unattended. There is at least a script squad nearby or a mine in my path of reverse. Any German tank is going to be crippled at close range or is going to get blasted at long range. And I have fought players using superb tactics: Using smoke, other units as distraction to bait my Su, Schrecks, Panzerfausts to cripple the Su-85 (which still reversed at a decent speed out there) and won the majority of those situations.

As a German player however -in order to win - I´m forced to either totally avoid tanks (is this really how the game is meant to be played?) or almost totally avoid attacking with them at all (is this really how a tank is meant to be played).

The Su-85 can be countered, but it is still OP. OP meaning it is way to good for cost.
It totally ignores the concept of combined arms: Vision range, gun damage, gun range, reverse speed, decent armor, a relatively low price - all in one unit.

As for the attack-move Panther argument: This is simple trolling of yours. An attack move Panther unattended will get either AT-naded, rammed, buttoned or simply mopped up at close range. One should think that a high cost tank with a dedicated anti tank gun is able to fire at Su-85s. Yeah the Su-85 is a tank destroyer, it has that name going for it. But the Panther was a tank destroyer by nature also. It was that in reality (okay you can ignore that) and it was that in coh1 (it was nice there). At that cost it should be a threat, but god forbid Germans actually get heavier tanks which are effective.

Mind you im proposing the Su-85 nerfs only with a buff to T-34s.

The cascade of changes should be, imo:
-Nerf Su85 speed
|
-Provide T34 upgun option to 85 maingun for 100 muni.
|
-Buff Stug
|
-Nerf T70 range
|
Buff PaK
|
-Shrek single purchase.

The cascade of changes should be, imo:
-Nerf Su85 speed
|
-Provide T34 upgun option to 85 maingun for 100 muni.
|
-Buff Stug
|
-Nerf T70 range
|
Buff PaK
|
-Shrek single purchase.

yup.

(specifically buff stug range and line of sight)

Maybe also slightly buff vanilla t34's surviviability.

i for 1 would like to see t34 85s as a separate unit and made to work like wolverines. that means relatively cheap and powerful when used enmassed.

as for su85, tank combat is screwed as a whole. 160 per shot is way too damaging as well as heavy tanks having too much hp. 160dmg should be reserved for AT guns. scale down the lethality and tanks should have more uses. compared to coh1, tanks had low burst damage potential against other tabks but good survivability and good potential for sustained fire through armor and immunity to small arms and suppression.

due to that, only things that can 4 shot tanks but lacking in chasing power are its hardest counter, the AT guns.

in the case of coh2, the hard counters are now on wheels, encased in armour and have immense range. ita no wonder why tank combat becomes to boring.

Well its not like the Soviets actually have *other* T4 tanks they can actually use....

Lets see Germans have PziV, Panther, Tiger, Elefant.

Soviets have Su-85 and ISU-152 which is late game and not relevant since Germans can have multiple Panthers before it even can take the field.

Maybe if they gave the Soviets some non-doctrinal tanks like actually giving the Soviets the T-34/85 or KV-1s you wouldnt see SU-85 spam.

On top of that the SU-85 is incredibly micro intensive and can actually be flanked if caught out of position by vetted PiVs and Panthers with NoS. Complaining about the SU-85 sniping infantry is also kind of weak considering PZiV's can pin and insta gib entire squads.

Complaining about the SU-85 is kind of ridiculous when the Soviets have no other heavy tank counters.

Well its not like the Soviets actually have *other* T4 tanks they can actually use....

Lets see Germans have PziV, Panther, Tiger, Elefant.

Soviets have Su-85 and ISU-152 which is late game and not relevant since Germans can have multiple Panthers before it even can take the field.

Maybe if they gave the Soviets some non-doctrinal tanks like actually giving the Soviets the T-34/85 or KV-1s you wouldnt see SU-85 spam.

On top of that the SU-85 is incredibly micro intensive and can actually be flanked if caught out of position by vetted PiVs and Panthers with NoS. Complaining about the SU-85 sniping infantry is also kind of weak considering PZiV's can pin and insta gib entire squads.

Complaining about the SU-85 is kind of ridiculous when the Soviets have no other heavy tank counters.

You include German doctrinal units then pointedly exclude Soviet doctrinal units. As a user of SU-85s in any game where I get pushed off, the micro seems to involve pointing it at German armour then reversing if things move forwards. Counters to German 'heavy' tanks include guards with mark target, ZiS guns and potentially ramming with support. I've seen two T-34s beat a P-IV handily head-on (though the penetration makes that fight a bit hard to predict). Doctrinally, T-34/85s, IS-2s, ISU-152s as well. Some of these options have been neglected just because they need improvement or are very circumstantial (IS-2, especially). Others are underused because the SU-85 is a bit out of line and much easier to use, as well as complimenting guards and snipers (both very popular as well) very nicely.

maybe instead of an su85 nerf we need a panther buff. since no one builds panthers anymore, its all panzer iv

maybe instead of an su85 nerf we need a panther buff. since no one builds panthers anymore, its all panzer iv

Not sure. A SU-85 nerf should take place first, along with a T-34 buff/upgun option, then see where that takes us. SU-85 needs a nerf; it completely nullifies German T3 (and most of T4) all by itself, which is simply too much. Less armor, less vision range, slower firing rate, less firing range, less speed, cost increase, there are plenty of ways to bring it back in line (not all of them at once, of course!). It should be a powerful anti-armor unit; it should not counter any and all armor up to Tigers by the simple virtue of being there. They're like faster, cheaper, better armored Fireflies that can spot for themselves. In fact I do think that the ''spot for themselves'' thing is bad design, or should be a vet 1 ability.

The Panther does its tank-hunting role well I find. Maybe it gets a bit overshadowed by the P4 (who could use a slight nerf or cost increase, if only for variety's sake) but against anything other than SUs it's a good tank. Maybe too expensive like all of the German T4, but let's tackle that issue after fixing the Soviet's.

Not sure. A SU-85 nerf should take place first, along with a T-34 buff/upgun option, then see where that takes us. SU-85 needs a nerf; it completely nullifies German T3 (and most of T4) all by itself, which is simply too much. Less armor, less vision range, slower firing rate, less firing range, less speed, cost increase, there are plenty of ways to bring it back in line (not all of them at once, of course!). It should be a powerful anti-armor unit; it should not counter any and all armor up to Tigers by the simple virtue of being there. They're like faster, cheaper, better armored Fireflies that can spot for themselves. In fact I do think that the ''spot for themselves'' thing is bad design, or should be a vet 1 ability.

The Panther does its tank-hunting role well I find. Maybe it gets a bit overshadowed by the P4 (who could use a slight nerf or cost increase, if only for variety's sake) but against anything other than SUs it's a good tank. Maybe too expensive like all of the German T4, but let's tackle that issue after fixing the Soviet's.

firefly with command tank do can spot for themselves.

Well its not like the Soviets actually have *other* T4 tanks they can actually use....

Lets see Germans have PziV, Panther, Tiger, Elefant.

Soviets have Su-85 and ISU-152 which is late game and not relevant since Germans can have multiple Panthers before it even can take the field.

You include the Elephant but the ISU-152 is "not relevate and too late game"?

You list the Tiger and ignore the IS-2?

Cherry-picking-much?

Buff the Panthers range to 60, problem will rectify itself by Panthers actually doing there job and being able to hunt down SU-85s without dieing. As opposed to current situation of the SU-85 taking no damage whilst killing a Panther

Alternatively buff the Stug to be the exact same stats as the SU-85 and the same cost and remove the LOS buff to Vet 1 for the SU-85.

Anyone pretending the SU-85 is balanced in it's current state must only play soviets. Combined arms of mines and AT nades you should never lose a SU-85 to enemy armour, effectively rendering Osteer armour useless.

First video: Both Pak crews were at 50% HP and only two men left when they engage the SU-85. How is that a good example? If you had used a full HP and full crew Pak, the SU-85 would have died.

Second video: If you hadn't been moving the Pak constantly, it would have destroyed the SU-85.

Third video: It took 5 direct hits before being destroyed, and it took out one of the SU-85s. I don't see the problem here, one AT gun for one SU-85 is a fair trade. Because he prioritized killing your Pak instead of retreating, the other one got a damaged engine and could easily be destroyed by anything -- one Scout Car with the autocannon upgrade would do it, or the Ostwind that you were building right at that moment. One dead Pak 40 gets you two SU-85 kills. Imagine if that situation had been two Panzer IVs against one ZiS -- what do you think would happen? No, the gun itself wouldn't be destroyed, but the crew would die with the same effect and they can use Attack-Ground to finish off the gun. And both Panzer IVs would still be alive when the ZiS is destroyed. Why should a single Pak 40 be able to engage two Soviet tanks by itself? Now, unlike with the Panzer IVs, in that situation your infantry are going to be safe and able to capture sectors, while the Soviets would be forced from the field until they can build more AT weapons.

It might seem odd for so many direct hits to occur, but I didn't see anything wrong with any of those situations from an actual balance perspective. And it's easy to pick out a few examples of crazy shit happening; far more often I see Pak 40s successfully destroying SU-85s if the Soviet player(s) don't react quickly enough in withdrawing them.

I agree that the StuG should have equivalent range to the SU-85. The Panther definitely should not.

I'm not sure what skill level of games you guys are playing, but I see Panzergrenadiers with Panzerschrecks all of the time among good teams. What you do is move two or three squads of mixed Grenadiers/PGrens forward and force the SU-85s away. If there are Maxims/Snipers, use Mortars/Panzerwerfers/flank (with infantry) to counter.

I play almost entirely Soviets right now because it's way too easy to win with Germans. And I can tell you, I don't want to be forced to build several SU-85s every game, but until other options for Soviets open up, I will have to. I don't build them because they're a fantastic unit, I do it because they're the ONLY counter to German tanks that actually works.

Now, the scatter is lower, yes, and I assume that was done to allow it to kill infantry occasionally. If the scatter is increased from 5 to 7.5, like the AT guns, its AoE should be increased to compensate.

Again, the SU-85 is a tank destroyer, meaning it's basically an AT gun in vehicle form. It's horrid against infantry and cost-effective against tanks if controlled properly. If you want to flank it, damage its engine with a Panzerfaust before you rush in your tanks.

There's another issue in that those videos are just a stationary SU-85. Given that an SU-85 has a decent chance just duking it out with a PAK, the usefulness of a PAK 40 as a counter to an SU-85 in a practical scenario with decent Russian micro, sniper backup or anything like that is very low.

firefly with command tank do can spot for themselves.

Yeah well that's not really a point, since the command tank is a unit, acting as something of a spotter. It would be like the SU-85 requiring (say) a SU-76 near it to use its vision cone. Would be fine by me, as it means you have a clear target to cripple the offending tank destroyer. As it is, the SU-85 only needs to activate the ability and have one infantry squad nearby to prevent flanks/provide vision and it's invincible to anything short of a mass attack, superior micro or an Elefant.

PAKs are too slow and vulnerable to be a counter. StuGs get eaten alive. Shrecks/fausts don't move fast enough. P4 needs to be vet 1 and flank. Panther only wins in favourable circumstances. PAK 43 beats it but it's doctrinal, stationary and vulnerable. I think it should beat a StuG (but not quite so handily), beat a P4 unless superior micro is involved, and lose to a Panther unless superior micro is involved.

Buff the Panthers range to 60, problem will rectify itself by Panthers actually doing there job and being able to hunt down SU-85s without dieing. As opposed to current situation of the SU-85 taking no damage whilst killing a Panther

+1 for Panther not doing its job.

+1 for Panther not doing its job.

Agree,

panther should get better frontal and slightly better AI, right now PZIV eats everything.

brown Bear is overpriced....needs price reduction

I'd like to see T-34/76 T-34/85 gets a buff while restrict the Ram ability

Tiger & Elefant & ISU-152 price reduction but Elefant & ISU-152 reduce range to about 70~80. right now 100 is ridiculous.

PZIV damge need to reduce from 160-->120,remainning are ok.

Stug can be a spam-able cheap AT which can be a counter to T-70 rush&T-34/76 rush

Ost-wind can be lot cheaper but remove the capabilities of doing decent damage dealt to T-34 TANK, and slightly reduce AI to compensate that price reduction...and reduced armor
(the hexagon open turret has only 10mm armor protection)

thus, stug can be a stop-gap to KV-8 and T-34, and ost-wind works as a soft counter to T-70

I disagree with removal of the cone sight, elefant has combo of cone-sight+spotter scope, it works literally like a map hack

but SU-85 reload time should increase from 4 sec to 5~6 sec.

IS-2 needs a seriously tweak.

brown Bear

Pleeeease, its a BRUMMbär not a Braunbär.

Agree,

panther should get better frontal and slightly better AI, right now PZIV eats everything.

brown Bear is overpriced....needs price reduction

I'd like to see T-34/76 T-34/85 gets a buff while restrict the Ram ability

Tiger & Elefant & ISU-152 price reduction but Elefant & ISU-152 reduce range to about 70~80. right now 100 is ridiculous.

PZIV damge need to reduce from 160-->120,remainning are ok.

Stug can be a spam-able cheap AT which can be a counter to T-70 rush&T-34/76 rush

Ost-wind can be lot cheaper but remove the capabilities of doing decent damage dealt to T-34 TANK, and slightly reduce AI to compensate that price reduction...and reduced armor
(the hexagon open turret has only 10mm armor protection)

thus, stug can be a stop-gap to KV-8 and T-34, and ost-wind works as a soft counter to T-70

I disagree with removal of the cone sight, elefant has combo of cone-sight+spotter scope, it works literally like a map hack

but SU-85 reload time should increase from 4 sec to 5~6 sec.

IS-2 needs a seriously tweak.

Not bad points overall. My comments however:

SU85 reverse speed also needs to be looked at.

I don't think ostwind should be nerfed. They already take very long to kill a t34. If ostwind is hitting the T34 in the ass, its bad micro from russian player.

Panzer IV damage nerf to 120 is way too much. The reason I say this: Panther comes out way later than the SU-85, and you can only get one if you are ahead by a considerable margin. Germans need a panzer IV to counter su85, unless stug range is buffed. Nerfing P4 damage to 120 will make it useless. Maybe nerf it to 150/140, but only if su-85 reverse speed is also nerfed. By the way, what is SU-85 damage currently? (stats page still down)

You compare su85 cone sight to elefant cone sight. Facepalm.
Elefant is waaaayyyy later and more expensive. SU85 cone sight at vet 1 will be a good change. No-one suggested it be taken away. After all, german tank abilities come at vet one.

IS-2 needs a buff yes.

Remove Cone sight, its fucking stupid.

i was in a game, winning the entire time.

i had 5 stugs because i still want them to be good and i like them and they're cool.

2 su-85's killed 5 stugs, stugs couldn't get off 1 shot.

retreat? su-85's would follow and kill them in 2 hits
attack? they can't penetrate frontal armour and are dead in seconds.

i'm not even fucking joking now relic, this is just a giant web of bullshit.

Remove Cone sight, its fucking stupid.

i was in a game, winning the entire time.

i had 5 stugs because i still want them to be good and i like them and they're cool.

2 su-85's killed 5 stugs, stugs couldn't get off 1 shot.

retreat? su-85's would follow and kill them in 2 hits
attack? they can't penetrate frontal armour and are dead in seconds.

i'm not even fucking joking now relic, this is just a giant web of bullshit.

I feel your pain man, stug was one of my fav units from vCoh, and now its useless. This is stupid regarding the fact that the Stug IRL was just as good as the SU-85 (If not better, since the Germans had superior optics and better trained crews) At the moment the stug is only useful vs the T34 and lighter. P4 is better vs everything. Stug should be germans counter to su-85, not the p4. P4 can flank it sure, but this is a tactical/micro counter, not a hard counter. Stug should be a hard counter to the SU-85. Even though it deals slightly less damage, it should be the same as the su85 in other aspects.

For example :

• 2 stugs beat 1 su 85.
  

• 3 stugs vs 2 su85's will be a close fight.
  

• 1 su85 beats 1 stug with 15% hp left or less. (thus the one with support usually wins)
  

(These examples do not take support into account)

The stug and SU-85 should have the same movement(especially reverse) speeds. SU-85 can deal a little more damage, cos it costs more, but stug should have same range. Stug and SU85 should both get cone viz at vet 1. The stug's target weak point is kindof a dumb ability when you are duelling su-85's since they dont even get a shot off. Target weak point must be replaced by cone visibility at vet 1 and for SU-85 also at vet 1.

Currently germans are forced to get p4, which makes the games boring. Relic will look at this i'm sure of it. I would actually prefer getting stugs and ostwinds in my games. The stug being a tank destroyer (which it isn't currently, but should be!) and the ost for AI, AA and light AT. In the current patch this build wont do jack shit if he gets su85's.

Aye, as a "StuG fan" it almost hurts seeing the state the StuGs in right now.

In reality it wasnt only an incredible potent Assault gun, it also was one of the most successful armored fighting vehicles ( tanks ) of the entire war. While beeing propably the cheapest and most produced Machine in the German Inventory.

That thing was almost the backbone of the german forces.

At least *till '43 no other Tank or Tank destroyer achieved so many "kills" per loss like the StuG.


But here it fails as both Assaultgun AND Tankdestroyer, especially for its price.