SU-85; The Thread

Panther is already a better tank killer than Su85.

Wrong.

Most of the time I beat Panthers with Su-85 1 vs 1. Panthers are not even getting off one shot at my Su-85. There is no sense in having better damage and more health on that Panther if your tank cant hit the target; neither with the gun range nor with the reverse speed of the Su-85. As of now the only thing any Russian player will do: Hit reverse command and shoot the Panther into pieces.

Germans need something mobile and non doctrinal to shoot back. This is a role where I could see the StuG in. Paks won´t do shit as the Su-85 can easily reverse. If your opponent isn´t a total imbecile the Su-85 will receive 1 hit from that Pak and that was it.

Wrong.

Most of the time I beat Panthers with Su-85 1 vs 1.

Maybe against someone with god awful micro.

Panthers are not even getting one shot at my Su-85. There is no sense in having better damage and more health on that Panther if your tank cant hit the target; neither with the gun range nor with the reverse speed of the Su-85. As of now the only thing any Russian player will do: Hit reverse command and shoot the Panther into pieces.

Not one shot huh? Show the replay of these terrible players throwing away their Panthers with little thought process and no micro.

Germans need something mobile and non doctrinal to shoot back. .

Oh, the P4 and Panther aren't mobile now. Gotcha.

Yeah when you use a Panther like an AT you deserve to lose.

SU-85s + sniper/Guards combo is indeed infuriating to fight. Denying fuel to the Soviet is hard to do because of the usual clown car BS, so unless you really outskill your opponent it's almost impossble to keep him from building SUs. And if it's properly supported, only thing that can possibly crack the nut is a Panzerwerfer (very fragile, arrives too late in T4, getting all that fuel when you're being forced out is hard) or an Elefant (arrives way too late, and I had one lose to two SU-85s). I think the german's lack of indirect fire beyond mortars until T4 is partly responsible for this. They could use a SPG akin to an SU-76.

But in general, the SU has too much going for it. Damage? check. Armor? Check. Range? Among the best. Vision? As much as its range. Speed? One of the fastest in the game too, even in reverse. Cost? 320/115, nothing exhorbiting. Turning speed? above average. Availability? Pretty soon, before a P4 if you denied fuel which is easier as Soviets. This thing has a lot of strenghts, with its only weakness being vulnerability to slow, costly infantry that other Soviet units can easily deal with (snipers, maxim, Shocks, upgraded conscripts or guards, T70). I'd reduce its vision range, general speed and maybe armor, but not before giving the T-34 an upgun.

Oh, the P4 and Panther aren't mobile now. Gotcha.

And they can´t shoot back most of the time. The problem with the Su-85 is not its´ damage output or armor, but the fact that it can totally avoid being shot at . It´s reverse speed is only slightly lower than the Panzer IVs´ and Panthers´ forwards speed. Not only that but it can shoot further. It´s totally awkward to have a unit ingame you can´t attack properly. Germans need something that can keep pace (a Pak can´t run after a Su-85 aka not very mobile) and still be able to shoot back (Panther and Panzer weirdly being totally incompetent in that role).

Yeah when you use a Panther like an AT you deserve to lose.

Facepalm, facepalm, facepalm. So much fail. Well it obviously is a hard counter to infantry, isn´t it? And now without sarcasm: The Panther is the iconic, ultimate, counter to tanks, or at least it should be. It sucks versus infantry and comes at a high cost, yet can´t shoot back at Su-85s. So: I pay 165 fuel 440MP on a unit that´s not supposed to counter tanks but also sucks versus infantry. Tell me what do I use it for then?

Hahaha, of course you do. After you conveniently ignore the fact its the best tank in the game for cost.

Panther is already a better tank killer than Su85.

The Panther can be kited by the SU-85. The SU-85 is actually slightly faster than PIV, so they can't catch up with getting kited by a well played SU-85.

The PIV is the best tank for its cost... Thats debatable, but I could agree. The SU-85 can destroy, 1v1 a PIV and it is cheaper. It has a longer line of sight and it is faster. It also has comparable frontal armor, but a much better gun. The SU-85 also arrives earlier.

That's not the point here, however. The PIV is only an amazing tank because the Panther got nerfed. Otherwise the Panther would still take the crown home. A lot of people were against the Panther being OP (not one of them)...

Part of the problem here is linear thinking, and I think that's what Golradaer was talking about. People are just chugging straightforward scenarios, when the game is anything but.

Soviets have VERY elaborate support abilities: Oorah is great to AT nade the PIV. Guard Button turns any tank into a sitting duck, if all else fails you have the Ram ability, which turns ANY tank into a sitting duck, regardless of the cost or efficiency of said tank. You have very good abilities to deal with german armor, which is why german armor needs to be strong by default. Its their army's trademark.

And they can´t shoot back most of the time. The problem with the Su-85 is not its´ damage output or armor, but the fact that it can totally avoid being shot at .

Oh, the Su85 can use smoke? It can avoid being shot if the German player is awful and has no idea how to flank or use combined arms tactics.

It´s reverse speed is only slightly lower than the Panzer IVs´ and Panthers´ forwards speed.

Right its, lower. Which means if you attack from an angle you can catch it and with blitz you can easily get behind it.

Not only that but it can shoot further.

Your point? It's also slower and has no rotating turret.

It´s totally awkward to have a unit ingame you can´t attack properly. Germans need something that can keep pace (a Pak can´t run after a Su-85 aka not very mobile) and still be able to shoot back (Panther and Panzer weirdly being totally incompetent in that role).

You can attack it properly just fine, but again, stop using your highly mobile tanks as AT guns.

It sucks versus infantry and comes at a high cost, yet can´t shoot back at Su-85s.

Except it can shoot back at Su85s and is better vs infantry than the Su85.

So: I pay 165 fuel 440MP on a unit that´s not supposed to counter tanks but also sucks versus infantry. Tell me what do I use it for then?

Oh boo hoo, you can't attack move win with Panther spam anymore. The horror.

Acting like Su85 is some god unit that can't be touched is laughable. Play better.

I do apologize, as I could not be bothered to read everything on this thread. My thoughts on the SU-85 is simply that you cannot do much to it at the moment because Soviet Tier 3 is so terrible. They need to change the other T3 units for both sides really before a lot can be done in my opinion.

At the moment it feels like there really isn't much need to get niche units such as the Ostwind (good damage to light vehicles, aircraft, and infantry) or the StuG (which isn't very good at it's niche currently anyways) when you can get a Panzer IV that does everything very well. Let alone two! Very cost effective with even only amateur micro, and basically the last step to defeating an SU-85 is out flanking it. And I'll go all the away around the damn map if I have to in order to do that.

As for Russian T3, the only other unit I really see much of is the SU-76 but it too is kind of like the StuG of their faction. Not good at filling its role. I do not play the Soviets enough to be confident about suggesting things, but perhaps the SU-76's barrage could be more potent? Longer range? Make it more of an assault gun? I don't know, something.

Of course, to fix the other units, the Panzer IV and SU-85s will need changes as well. It goes hand in hand. Fix the other units to fix the PIV and SU-85, fix the SU-85 and PIV to fix the other T3 units.

P.S. I would go as far as to argue there isn't too much "OP" about the SU-85, and only some "OP" aspects about the Panzer IV. My problem isn't necessarily with over/under-powered but rather how stale the game becomes due to these issues. Like in vCoH, we want a variety of strategies, many different possibilities and outcomes.

If you do not believe me, I recall playing with a new good friend of mine and we literally used the same strategy over and over again in 2v2 as the Ostheer. He'd get the Opels, I'd get the Elefant doctrine. I eventually got bored and told him that it wasn't his fault, but I just couldn't keep doing it as it was getting rather boring.

The Panther can be kited by the SU-85. The SU-85 is actually slightly faster than PIV, so they can't catch up with getting kited by a well played SU-85.

Wrong actually. A su85 isn't beating a well micro'd Panther (that is in kill range) unless it gets extremely lucky RNG. If a Panther loses because its being outranged than that is straight up micro failure.

The PIV is the best tank for its cost... Thats debatable, but I could agree. The SU-85 can destroy, 1v1 a PIV and it is cheaper.

The Su85 will win a frontal engagement but that is simply poor play by the P4. A P4 coming from the side of a Su85 can easily win 1v1 due to the 85s turn speed and the P4s turret.

But you do realize that the Su85 is a TANK DESTROYER

It has a longer line of sight and it is faster.

P4 has a turret and has more maneuverability. P4s is actually faster than the Su85 reverse. Not to mention blitz.

It also has comparable frontal armor, but a much better gun. The SU-85 also arrives earlier.

The P4 is much better against infantry, not to mention AA while also having ridiculously good penetration.

If Su85 arrives earlier it won't be by much and is an indicator you were outplayed the first part of the game. Su85 on the field is not going to change the game much if there is no medium/heavy armor to fight.

That's not the point here, however. The PIV is only an amazing tank because the Panther got nerfed. Otherwise the Panther would still take the crown home. A lot of people were against the Panther being OP (not one of them)...

No its amazing because it was overbuffed and has no glaring weaknesses for the cost.

eople are just chugging straightforward scenarios, when the game is anything but.

Again, if you're getting into a frontal slugfest with a tank destroyer you deserve to lose. Attack from multiple angles, use smoke, truesight, bait them into Paks etc. If you're charging it with a lone tank, head on, when the Su85 is at max range + full true sight, again, you deserve to lose to a one dimensional tank destroyer.

Soviets have VERY elaborate support abilities: Oorah is great to AT nade the PIV. Guard Button turns any tank into a sitting duck, if all else fails you have the Ram ability, which turns ANY tank into a sitting duck, regardless of the cost or efficiency of said tank. You have very good abilities to deal with german armor, which is why german armor needs to be strong by default. Its their army's trademark.

Waaah waaah, can't attack move win anymore/can't win without strafe etc.

German armor is strong and statistically better than the Soviets ing ame. Trust me, you don't want to go the historical route here. Soviets easily have more gripes on that front.

Wrong actually. A su85 isn't beating a well micro'd Panther (that is in kill range) unless it gets extremely lucky RNG. If a Panther loses because its being outranged than that is straight up micro failure.



The Su85 will win a frontal engagement but that is simply poor play by the P4. A P4 coming from the side of a Su85 can easily win 1v1 due to the 85s turn speed and the P4s turret.

But you do realize that the Su85 is a TANK DESTROYER



P4 has a turret and has more maneuverability. P4s is actually faster than the Su85 reverse. Not to mention blitz.



The P4 is much better against infantry, not to mention AA while also having ridiculously good penetration.

If Su85 arrives earlier it won't be by much and is an indicator you were outplayed the first part of the game. Su85 on the field is not going to change the game much if there is no medium/heavy armor to fight.



No its amazing because it was overbuffed and has no glaring weaknesses for the cost.



Again, if you're getting into a frontal slugfest with a tank destroyer you deserve to lose. Attack from multiple angles, use smoke, truesight, bait them into Paks etc. If you're charging it with a lone tank, head on, when the Su85 is at max range + full true sight, again, you deserve to lose to a one dimensional tank destroyer.



Waaah waaah, can't attack move win anymore/can't win without strafe etc.

German armor is strong and statistically better than the Soviets ing ame. Trust me, you don't want to go the historical route here. Soviets easily have more gripes on that front.

Only thing I have to comment on is that the Panzer IV is faster than the SU-85 (when the latter is going in reverse). I do believe you are correct, but it is not by much, and unless you are starting them side-by-side, or almost so, the Panzer IV won't be able to get behind it. Especially if there are supporting Soviet units.

Although, the interesting thing about that is I never really had to experience this warp speed reverse very often. I rarely go out of my way to try and 1v1 an SU-85 with a PIV. I just don't like the chances. So instead I usually have two, one PIV comes from behind and blocks its escape, the other attacks from the front or side and begins to circle. Decent micro secures me the kill, and at most I lose one of the PIVs (worth it in my opinion in 1v1).

If the SU-85 is winning the race backwards, more than likely you attacked from the front WITHOUT Blitzkrieg (we're only talking about the PIV here). That is something I never attempt, a full on, blind frontal assault expecting to somehow get in and behind the SU-85. Unless, of course I panzerfausted it or something, but you get the point.

Otherwise I agree with your post. And this is coming from an Axis fanboy dating back to vCoH.

P.S. Regardless of the fact that it isn't too difficult to overcome the SU-85's reverse speed, it still doesn't make any sense for it to be able to go backwards as fast as it does. Either give the StuG an equivalent reverse speed, or make them pay for having it out of position by reducing the reverse speed. I am just agreeing with you that currently it is by no means impossible to beat at the moment, but it should still be fixed.

Just reduce the range to 40, frontal armor to 120, remove vet ability, increase the fuel cost to 145, and reduce move speed in reverse by 30% and rotation speed by 30% then it will be fair for the Germans.

Dont worry guys.

Sufficient statistical data on reverse/rotation speed of SU85 in comparison with other armor has been demonstrated to warrant Dev attention, alongside experiential testimony that a reversing/rotating SU85 is too mobile vs armor.

Ace provided statistical and video proof of the SU85 scatter vs PaKs. This too is concrete enough to warrant Dev attention.

The Devs are certain to pay attention to well documented, statistically and evidentially supported arguments/suggestions.

I am confident Devs are atleast aware of these arguments.
Id think likelihood of atleast a speed nerf is very high in the next patch.

Read the post again: Go for panzerwerfers if you can. I play 2v2's mostly, where the SU-85 is much, MUCH more spammable, and sdkfz 222's can still outflank the enemy snipers, especially if you send a recon run out there to survey. If the SU-85 shot your scout car before you shoot the sniper away, then you are doing it wrong.

Many times, simply killing that one sniper will discourage the player for building another one, for fear of losing that much manpower. Without snipers, maxims can be taken out with indirect fire barrages and smoke. In fact, smoke will most like force the SU-85 to back up or relocate, because it loses its true advantage: range.

Fist off panzerwerfers are t4, so much too late for the SU-85 stage of the game. I was referring to Pripiyat. On Moscow i dont have trouble with su85's that much, they are still irritating but at least there is room to flank.

The snipers on pripiyat can be hard to deal with since your 221/222 cant really chase them if he has su-85's.

Mortar halftrack, meh i like them, but they are in crappy doctrine and i dont have collectors edition. I much prefer the other doctrines anyways.

All i can think of is using more tellers mid game to stop su85's advancing. This however requires me to secure much of the map early game(so i can plant at the chokes without him seeing) which is a bitch. Using regular mortars vs the infantry and maybe smoke to advance can also work. Perhaps i will have to revert to strafe spamming but i dont like using abusive stuff that will prolly be nerfed in future.

I have said this over and over, it is not that the su85 supported with maxim/sniper/htd scripts or guards on pripiyat is impossible to counter. It is just that it requires more skill to counter than it requires to use, which imo makes it a fairly abusive strat.

People use su-85's as their main battle tank, when they should be used in support from behind, since they are a ASSAULT GUN. there's the problem, i have no issue with the damage but you can't exploit your opponents mistakes by circle strafing it because it reverses and moves faster than everything!

People use su-85's as their main battle tank, when they should be used in support from behind, since they are a ASSAULT GUN. there's the problem, i have no issue with the damage but you can't exploit your opponents mistakes by circle strafing it because it reverses and moves faster than everything!

Yup.

And the stug does nothing close to that even though they are essentially very similiar IRL.

Is it easier as soviet to circle strafe german tanks? Not really, as long as blitz works for damaged engine or the T34 dies so fast. So really if you think about it SU85 is balanced but in a different way. German players (non-pro) are used to attack move and win, well in COH2 it doesn't work anymore so learn to play.

This is absolutely the toughest thing to break and I've had countless games like this. The SU-85 supported with MG's and snipers and usually a mortar plus your pick of infantry, and often with at least one ZiS, is basically uncrackable. All of this comes soooo early too. And it's not map specific, this works on open maps as much as closed-in.

Counter's simply don't exist. You have to address the infantry before the SU-85 but that's impossible seeing as there's MG's and snipers. So, you need to use vehicles. But that's impossible because of the SU-85's (and again, usually a ZiS for taste).

ONly arty can break it. But as long as arty is in T4....

Good luck ever getting there.

Is this a joke?
Are you crying about a well defended position with combined arms?
Like if Ostheer do the same the Soviets can break it without the use of arti.
Or you implying that Soviets are not supposed to do this because you can`t roll through them with your stupid PIV and PGrens?

Is this a joke?
Are you crying about a well defended position with combined arms?
Like if Ostheer do the same the Soviets can break it without the use of arti.
Or you implying that Soviets are not supposed to do this because you can`t roll through them with your stupid PIV and PGrens?

This is a stupid troll post, with no head or tail except to provoke, falsely imply and generally be an a55.

This is a stupid troll post, with no head or tail except to provoke, falsely imply and generally be an a55.

Please explain to me how my post is a troll post?
Have you read what he said?
There are too many drama queens here.
Ppl crying over SU-85 because it can shout farther than their precious PIV.
Oh look SU-85 just killed my PIV in a frontal assault, it should be nerfed because German armour is supposed to be stronger than the Soviet one.
I laugh at ppl considering that SU-85 is a T-4 unit while PIV is a T-3 unit, it makes sense that SU should freaking roflstopm the PIV. Learn to scout and flank it with Grens to faust and the PIV circle around it and if you still fail with this tactic its either use smoke to run away or just play tutorial.
Panther can rape SU no problem if you are half decent sameg goes for PIV.
SU-85 is the only tank that is actually good.
T-70 should be nerfed though, that tank is just a squad sniper on wheels

And yet another post that fits the description I gave above.

Some people really have no idea/education/sense to conduct reciprocal, objective and ontopic discussion.

Please explain to me how my post is a troll post?
Have you read what he said?
There are too many drama queens here.
Ppl crying over SU-85 because it can shout farther than their precious PIV.
Oh look SU-85 just killed my PIV in a frontal assault, it should be nerfed because German armour is supposed to be stronger than the Soviet one.
I laugh at ppl considering that SU-85 is a T-4 unit while PIV is a T-3 unit, it makes sense that SU should freaking roflstopm the PIV. Learn to scout and flank it with Grens to faust and the PIV circle around it and if you still fail with this tactic its either use smoke to run away or just play tutorial.
Panther can rape SU no problem if you are half decent sameg goes for PIV.
SU-85 is the only tank that is actually good.
T-70 should be nerfed though, that tank is just a squad sniper on wheels

You are only making yourself more of a troll.

First off T3/T4 is TOTALLY irrelevant since geman tiering is linear, and Russian tiering is not. Seriously you think because its T4 it should be this uber unit? Lol, It comes out the same time as a P4, even costs the same. Im not even going to elaborate further about Tiers, since I dont think you will change your mind since you are clearly a russian fanboi.

No-one was commenting on SU-85 being able to "shout" (lol you meant shoot I guess) further than a P4. The trouble is, IT SHOOTS FARTHER THAN EVERYTHING including stugs, which is a very similiar assault gun.(exept elefant which is irrelevant cos it comes LATE)

Also, flanking it on a map like pripiyat is nigh impossible without driving round all the way around the side of the map making your tank extremely vulnerable to at nades.

SU-85 might be russians only good at tank, but THIS IS PRECISELY THE PROBLEM. That is why the balance should be adressed as a whole and other tanks like the T34 and the stug also need balancing attention.

Sorry for the capslock rage but this guy clearly didnt even read the rest of the thread and stinks like only a true troll can