Great, they switch the MG spamfest to Ostheer

@Combatmonkey: MGs arc and rate of suppression balances vs Oorah.

A minimum range on Machine Guns would provide a secondary means to effectively force them to move and thereby make them vulnerable, aside from fiddling with hp/armor/crew.

Though it wouldnt make Machine Guns any easier to kill, it would force them to move, which is pretty much the desired effect I think people are asking for.

If you add a minimum range to MGs they become useless against Soviets.

Oorah right now is sort of balanced due to how the MG42 team is designed to fight that(Or maybe it's the other way around), but it's a very fragile balance.

It would likewise mean that a Ost infantry unit that manages to flank ontop of a Maxim will force it to move as well.

Imo the problem currently is that if infantry manages to flank a Machine Gun position, the damn thing just picks up, resetups, and begins point blank firing. This is what makes flanking unrewarding.

With a minimum range, this wouldnt be possible. Problem solved.

loling at combatmonkey XD

i think a slower set-up time with the same pack up time here would be better. think about blizzard's limited sight. mg might as well just retreat and stay at base. and forcing my mg to move is fine, but the cons can just follow him to where ever he's going...this is something i'd like to see in a public test server. that way we can see if it works or totally screws the game

It would likewise mean that a Ost infantry unit that manages to flank ontop of a Maxim will force it to move as well.

Imo the problem currently is that if infantry manages to flank a Machine Gun position, the damn thing just picks up, resetups, and begins point blank firing. This is what makes flanking unrewarding.

With a minimum range, this wouldnt be possible. Problem solved.

If you're right on top of an MG team just keep your guys running circles around it. I don't know why people let me walk away and set up again.

You go, flank him, force moving, if he sets up again, molotov and GG. Or just follow him when he's moving. The only thing that should scare you in this regard is if they get into a large building, where a moltov wont instagib them if they're on low HP.

Given true sight and Oorah, giving the MG a minimum range would mean every time a conscript saw an MG on the move/facing the wrong way they'd pay 5 munitions to run straight through it. It also would feel really stupid to have a man 5 feet in front of an MG not get blasted by said MG.

The suggestion I like is increasing small arms fire damage as well as increasing cover bonuses. This would make tactics more important, which I reckon is clearly a good thing.

Having played vCoH for years, been a part of the Europe in Ruins modding team along with PQ (what's up man? ) and begun modding my own mod for CoH1 ('Operation Avalanche'), I feel that I have enough insight to simply jump into this. First of all, points I feel are relevant:

Conscripts = Pseudo-Riflemen. They get Indenciary Grenades and Sticky Bombs from the PE/US respectively and can upgrade to what are essentially BARs with doctrine choices.

RU as a whole is in fact a pretty much reskinned US faction with some 'oooohhh pretty' thrown in; the T70 is a Faghound/Greyhound mashup, more closely related to the former but almost equivilant to the latter with the .50 cal upgrade (AI capacity). We have the return of the ATG but now instead of the useful AP rounds, we have the absolutely infuriating-to-play-against-lelbarrage ability. The T-34/76 is the vanilla Sherman, and the 85 is the upgunned Sherman--why it was made doctrinal we'll probably never know, but I can't say I support the change. Guards are a 'meh' replacement for Rangers with pretty pathetic AT capability (short of countering some T2 light armor--ooohh scary!) and Shock Troops are the result of the fusion of Rangers and Commandos. Penals....I don't get it, Guards, the most elite troops in the Red Army, get DP-28s (great), but suicide troops who were 'given only 100 grams of vodka a day' and were formed from dissidents and the poorly trained or disabled were also 'some of the best troops out there' 'when well led', and get the best rifle weapons in the game (the SVT)--and in fact, rifles that took ADDITIONAL TRAINING to use properly and were sparingly issued even to Guards units--yet still get WALKED ON by Grenadiers in 1:1 troop count ratios, even with Penals having to cost 380-freakin-Manpower? Logic (tm).

The Germans are a horrific mashup of PE/WM, with Panzergrenadiers being a port of Assault Grenadiers/Stormtroopers with the capability of upgrading to Tank Hunters Tactics Tankbuster Grenadiers ('Double AT Efforts') that can bundle nade everything in their path and with Vet2, waltz through four upgraded (PPSh) Conscript squads with impunity and terminate them all. T1 Grenadiers that cost the same as Conscripts? Yes please! You don't even need Pios to bunker down a-la CoHO.

Alright, general balance grips over with, to the point. The MG42 change was unneeded. I myself used the SIS strat in vCoH (5 Rifles -> BARs -> map control and hopefully a fast Sherman) and, seeing the similarities between the games and factions, have taken to 4 Conscripts -> T3 -> work from there. Being forced to essentially back-tech to the WSC (Supp. Wep. Kompaneya) for proper anti-support spam is tolerable, but the fact that small arms have been tweaked to were I could bludgeon a Grenadier to death with a spork faster than Conscripts could shoot one to death makes pulling off a successful flank less rewarding. With buildings in their current state it's a pain to dislodge MGs without Molotovs, pulling the 'dance around the building forcing him to pack up and deploy endlessly while I slowly DPS him to death' trick no longer works. At all. However, with Molotovs, Flamers aren't needed at all so I guess it isn't much of an issue. The point stands, however, that MG42s can be easily turned around to smother a flank because they A) swivel ridiculously fast compared to vCoH, you can't run ACROSS an MG arc and keep your troops just ahead of his barrel, B) MGs no longer prioritize units closer to the center of their arc, only units closer to them, meaning that less micro is needed to select targets, and C) the amount of damage units take while Pinned seems to have been increased, meaning that you can't keep his focus on one squad that you tried to bait him with. In fact, it's ridiculously, LAUGHABLY easy to instantly pin multiple flanking squads that would have normally pulled off a successful flank. Then as soon as T2 hits, Assault Grenadiers are out with DERPflammenhalftracks and all bets are off if you don't have Guards out already. Not to mention that Soviet anti-MG weapons got hit with the nerf bat and the Maxim's vehicle-behavior ebps bug still hasn't been resolved means that Maxim crews still go 'lel suppression, IDGAF!'.

My honest suggestion would be to revert the changes to the MG42 and Soviet crewed weapons and instead address issues regarding the Soviet Sniper teams, the M3A1, the ebps issue with the Maxim's behavior, and possibly the effects of the Doom Mortars.

Then move on to more pressing issues like how easy it is to spam Opel Blits trucks and turtle to having four+ Tigers out at the same time.

If 80% of the playerbase plays as the Ostheer currently, I find it damn hard to believe that the Soviets are gloriously OP, or even were, with 80% of the playerbase playing as the Germans since the game came out.

Lot of hyperbole=bias.

Support crews are more or less fine, right now. Maybe Soviet mortars are a little too slow, and perhaps the pak needs something to give it an edge (accuracy at far distance?).

All of these complaints and frustrations about flanking are not directly related to crews, but rather, small arms fire damage.

Quite frankly, if the German player builds a number of HMG's early on, they are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to a number of hard counters. The M3 and 120mm mortar proved the most effective counter, Molotovs and the use of buildings were a close second.

If you are finding that the German player is garrisoning his MGs, I would suggest getting 1 Penal Battalion and using their satchel grenade. This typically knocks the entire building out.

So, when we play soviets and need to counter machinguns, we have to get only one specific doctrine for 120mm mortar?
Or we forced to go t1 (which makes impossible to get t3 after it), and forced to go only t4?
It was already been said by your team, that t3 has to be played only with t2. And my expirience confirms it - if you get t1+t3 you wll have nothing against armor.
Strange design I say.

m3 does not exist purely to attack mgs. ac does not exist purely to kill m3. mg42s can do damage to m3 and by the time you see t70 or anything better armored, you should have t2 and shrecks and/or pak to help you if you're not at t3.

I agree, The 222 can also shoot planes kill snipers, even kill katyushas, halftracks and su76's and become useful vs t70 when vetted. They are also nifty support to your infantry fights (and quite cheap to build). A further use is to upgrade your 222 with a scope(if you like elefant doctrine like me) to give line of sight for your pak/sniper or w/e.

M3 can hold guards and snipers, They dont exist purely to counter mg's.

Having played vCoH for years, been a part of the Europe in Ruins modding team along with PQ (what's up man? ) and begun modding my own mod for CoH1 ('Operation Avalanche'), I feel that I have enough insight to simply jump into this. First of all, points I feel are relevant:

Conscripts = Pseudo-Riflemen. They get Indenciary Grenades and Sticky Bombs from the PE/US respectively and can upgrade to what are essentially BARs with doctrine choices.

RU as a whole is in fact a pretty much reskinned US faction with some 'oooohhh pretty' thrown in; the T70 is a Faghound/Greyhound mashup, more closely related to the former but almost equivilant to the latter with the .50 cal upgrade (AI capacity). We have the return of the ATG but now instead of the useful AP rounds, we have the absolutely infuriating-to-play-against-lelbarrage ability. The T-34/76 is the vanilla Sherman, and the 85 is the upgunned Sherman--why it was made doctrinal we'll probably never know, but I can't say I support the change. Guards are a 'meh' replacement for Rangers with pretty pathetic AT capability (short of countering some T2 light armor--ooohh scary!) and Shock Troops are the result of the fusion of Rangers and Commandos. Penals....I don't get it, Guards, the most elite troops in the Red Army, get DP-28s (great), but suicide troops who were 'given only 100 grams of vodka a day' and were formed from dissidents and the poorly trained or disabled were also 'some of the best troops out there' 'when well led', and get the best rifle weapons in the game (the SVT)--and in fact, rifles that took ADDITIONAL TRAINING to use properly and were sparingly issued even to Guards units--yet still get WALKED ON by Grenadiers in 1:1 troop count ratios, even with Penals having to cost 380-freakin-Manpower? Logic (tm).

The Germans are a horrific mashup of PE/WM, with Panzergrenadiers being a port of Assault Grenadiers/Stormtroopers with the capability of upgrading to Tank Hunters Tactics Tankbuster Grenadiers ('Double AT Efforts') that can bundle nade everything in their path and with Vet2, waltz through four upgraded (PPSh) Conscript squads with impunity and terminate them all. T1 Grenadiers that cost the same as Conscripts? Yes please! You don't even need Pios to bunker down a-la CoHO.

Alright, general balance grips over with, to the point. The MG42 change was unneeded. I myself used the SIS strat in vCoH (5 Rifles -> BARs -> map control and hopefully a fast Sherman) and, seeing the similarities between the games and factions, have taken to 4 Conscripts -> T3 -> work from there. Being forced to essentially back-tech to the WSC (Supp. Wep. Kompaneya) for proper anti-support spam is tolerable, but the fact that small arms have been tweaked to were I could bludgeon a Grenadier to death with a spork faster than Conscripts could shoot one to death makes pulling off a successful flank less rewarding. With buildings in their current state it's a pain to dislodge MGs without Molotovs, pulling the 'dance around the building forcing him to pack up and deploy endlessly while I slowly DPS him to death' trick no longer works. At all. However, with Molotovs, Flamers aren't needed at all so I guess it isn't much of an issue. The point stands, however, that MG42s can be easily turned around to smother a flank because they A) swivel ridiculously fast compared to vCoH, you can't run ACROSS an MG arc and keep your troops just ahead of his barrel, B) MGs no longer prioritize units closer to the center of their arc, only units closer to them, meaning that less micro is needed to select targets, and C) the amount of damage units take while Pinned seems to have been increased, meaning that you can't keep his focus on one squad that you tried to bait him with. In fact, it's ridiculously, LAUGHABLY easy to instantly pin multiple flanking squads that would have normally pulled off a successful flank. Then as soon as T2 hits, Assault Grenadiers are out with DERPflammenhalftracks and all bets are off if you don't have Guards out already. Not to mention that Soviet anti-MG weapons got hit with the nerf bat and the Maxim's vehicle-behavior ebps bug still hasn't been resolved means that Maxim crews still go 'lel suppression, IDGAF!'.

My honest suggestion would be to revert the changes to the MG42 and Soviet crewed weapons and instead address issues regarding the Soviet Sniper teams, the M3A1, the ebps issue with the Maxim's behavior, and possibly the effects of the Doom Mortars.

Then move on to more pressing issues like how easy it is to spam Opel Blits trucks and turtle to having four+ Tigers out at the same time.

If 80% of the playerbase plays as the Ostheer currently, I find it damn hard to believe that the Soviets are gloriously OP, or even were, with 80% of the playerbase playing as the Germans since the game came out.

This is kind of depressing. It took 7 years for coh2 to come out... and its basically a reskinned version oh vcoh with power up abities and goofy tanks along with circus style fights... wow.... thanks for making my day (I mean ruining it).

This is kind of depressing. It took 7 years for coh2 to come out... and its basically a reskinned version oh vcoh with power up abities and goofy tanks along with circus style fights... wow.... thanks for making my day (I mean ruining it).

Tristan, they didn't work on CoH2 for 7 years, so that argument is pointless. People keep saying 7 years implying as though they'd been working on it for that long. You have to at least discount the time for the expansions, for CoHO, and other projects (W40K).

Game studios don't always launch their entire creative arsenal on one title alone. Some do, not all. Many of those projects don't even see the light of day, or get announced at all.

Lot of hyperbole=bias.

Never said I wasn't. Doesn't mean what I said is any less/more valid.

Tristan, they didn't work on CoH2 for 7 years, so that argument is pointless. People keep saying 7 years implying as though they'd been working on it for that long. You have to at least discount the time for the expansions, for CoHO, and other projects (W40K).

Game studios don't always launch their entire creative arsenal on one title alone. Some do, not all. Many of those projects don't even see the light of day, or get announced at all.

Well, I have some sympathy on the difficulty of Relic's job. It is very hard to work between different publishers but it is also difficult for them to release a product with the original publisher just so that THQ could keep on ticking on - ie releasing it for money.

But then again, with COH1 being perfected over 7 years, why not use the better elements of COH1. I mean, that game has been perfected over time. I can understand a few changes but I also don't understand why a few other things have been changed (namely, MG guns and strafe). Both elements of the game worked perfectly fine in VCoH anyway.

Well, I have some sympathy on the difficulty of Relic's job. It is very hard to work between different publishers but it is also difficult for them to release a product with the original publisher just so that THQ could keep on ticking on - ie releasing it for money.

But then again, with COH1 being perfected over 7 years, why not use the better elements of COH1. I mean, that game has been perfected over time. I can understand a few changes but I also don't understand why a few other things have been changed (namely, MG guns and strafe). Both elements of the game worked perfectly fine in VCoH anyway.

of course. Development time is never an excuse to release an underfeatured product, and I agree that they missed some very basic features thst I expected in the game. However, I am betting in the medium term, so Relic delivers something better.

of course. Development time is never an excuse to release an underfeatured product, and I agree that they missed some very basic features thst I expected in the game. However, I am betting in the medium term, so Relic delivers something better.

I know, but remember that back in December, they made a release date for March. The fact that even now, the game has problems just shows how desperate THQ was. In the end, even THQ didn't make it.

Now what could Relic do? They either polish the product more and release it slightly later or they delay it for a further 6 months or longer. Keep in mind, at the time, the community was unhappy the game was pushed back 3 months. And also, since a release date was announced, it was impossible for Relic to do the latter without losing a lot of people.

They really had to do what they did.

I'm not exactly defending them for what they are missing (which in my view, is problematic but they did all that they could), I am trying to provide the context in terms of how things happened.

This

http://semiaccurate.com/2013/07/15/company-of-heroes-2-relic-performance/

Am I the only one abusing the ZiS ability against mg posts and buildings? it's kind of a godsend.
(send engis upfront to spy defense placement, retreat them, then use the ZiS ability)
I tend to get a couple of soviet AT earlish over mortars cause of this, and they can also take care of german HTs.
Later on the KV8 takes care of it.

Am I the only one abusing the ZiS ability against mg posts and buildings? it's kind of a godsend.
(send engis upfront to spy defense placement, retreat them, then use the ZiS ability)
I tend to get a couple of soviet AT earlish over mortars cause of this, and they can also take care of german HTs.
Later on the KV8 takes care of it.

Agreed, russians have no reason to complain about german MG's. There are more than enough counters to them. That Zis barrage also takes out snipers well.