Great, they switch the MG spamfest to Ostheer

Yes, you should not be able to build whatever you want, as long as the enemy put as much effort in it as you have to put into countering it.

I mean, common... all the german needs to do is place MG42s and he allready forces the russian in a role.
There is not a single unit in russian arsenal that does it the same way.

There should not be that much of a reward out of any unit with that little risk (because the russian has to outplay the german by a lot to counter it). to argument "you can't just build whatever" is just stupid, because then just buff back everything from last patch since Maxims clearly were not broken (you could beat them). Scout cars could be beaten no need for the transported units to die.

they were nerfed because they were not risky enough, same goes for MG42 spam... there is very little risk in it atm.


Also, idc what he won some time ago. Really don't.

MGs are more of a high risk, high reward unit than grenadiers. You can't faust, you can't riflegrenade buildings, and if you retreat too late you risk not only losing a squad, but giving a support weapon to your opponent. If your opponent does go M3s, you are forced to build grenadiers or lose all of your map control. I still don't see the problem.

Your argument against what I said re: "you can't build whatever you want" doesn't make sense. Something being counterable or not is a separate issue from whether or not it's a good thing to be able to force your opponent to react to your unit composition.

Infantry in buildings are too tough, addressed in alpha, and still un-changed.

You see one MG-42, stick to whatever you were planning, you see three, tech and add in a hard counter like a flamecar or a sniper or a mortar or something. This was something you generally had to do seeing masses of MGs before this change as well. Not an enormous problem except for the buildings thing, which is not just a squad size issue (it's more that big buildings spread molotov damage enough that driving squads out is very hard).

And @OP - a sniper is a safer counter than a clown car to MGs any day of the week...

I dont understand this problem Sov are "suddenly" having with MGs.

Ost has been dealing with this kind of situation for months.

Buildings are an issue, but again, even more so, still, for Ost.

Oorah Cons into flanks + Molotov. Deliver flame/cons with M3 to flank. Snipe from range. Mortar. ZiS Barrage. Viable, functional and cost effective options are multiple.

Ost Crews now count as if they had 4 Sov crew. I really REALLY dont understand the complaints.

I dont understand this problem Sov are "suddenly" having with MGs.

Ost has been dealing with this kind of situation for months.

Buildings are an issue, but again, even more so, still, for Ost.

Oorah Cons into flanks + Molotov. Deliver flame/cons with M3 to flank. Snipe from range. Mortar. ZiS Barrage. Viable, functional and cost effective options are multiple.

Ost Crews now count as if they had 4 Sov crew. I really REALLY dont understand the complaints.

I think the idea of all of this is - MGs do a little bit too much and they're too hard to kill or punish due to bad placement. If a support unit is badly placed, it should be punished.

...

I think the idea of all of this is - MGs do a little bit too much and they're too hard to kill or punish due to bad placement. If a support unit is badly placed, it should be punished.

Ost has been dealing with Maxims and other support crews under far less favorable circumstances for months.

Why is it only now suddenly a problem?

Ost has been dealing with Maxims and other support crews under far less favorable circumstances for months.

Why is it only now suddenly a problem?

What I'm saying is, I agree, it's a problem which Ost players have been dealing with. And often, before this patch, I've been playing soviets a bit more to avoid this kind of play.

There are ways of beating it for both sides, but it leads to ridiculously dry games.

What I was suggesting is why ppl have been complaining about it.

In fact, I do remember Porygon complaining about maxim spam a while back.

We did consider the consequence of this change; flanking is now less punishing to the receiving playing. Note I said less punishing, typically you can still force a retreat and in fewer circumstances you can actually decrew the weapon team. If you do manage to do this as Soviets, you get the best of both worlds when you recrew that weapon.

That pretty important: Ostheer has huge trouble retaking their own weapons, whereas as Soviet I don't even bother building MGs and Mortars anymore, I just loot the battlefield.

Nothing is more game ending than decrewing the first MG42 with conscripts. You can't come back from that blunder.

Ost/Sov support crew asymmetric balance is now better than ever.

If there is a problem, it is due to base infantry firepowers lowness, not due to the respective survival of Ost/Sov support crews.

Sov crews still carry advantage in this regard, both in terms of survival, reinforce cost, and weapon capture.

I for myself find it hard to counter a well placed mg or an mg in a building. I as a soviet player try to spam about 3 conscripts and conquer the map with them. When there is a heavy mg player, he forces me to invest into my early a lot of resources or to give up big parts of the map. I think that the width is a bit unfair in some locations. as well as the range and the instant surpression, when fired from houses. you can basicaly place the mg in a house in the middle and then only need to prootect the far top and botom sides.(in for example kholodny map) i have tried to counter and mg in a house with 2 conscripits...it is really hard if the player pays attention and just pins my squads to the ground. And now molotovs kill about 2 out of 4, maximal 3...so the enemy can still shoot out of the house with 1-2 left. So the extra squad at the mg makes me unhappy. With the other support weapons i am fine

Ill try to demonstrate my thinking on why this is a nonissue, by illustrating the asymettric balance of MG vs Maxim:

Maxim cost= MG cost
Maxim greater DPS = MG greater Suppression
Maxim smaller Arc = MG longer Setup
Maxim Crew 80hp per man = MG Crew 80hp per man
Maxim Crew 1 armor per man = MG Crew 1 armor per man
Maxim Crew reinforce is cheaper > MG Crew reinforce costs more
Maxim Crew DPS is reduced Rifle dmg (ranged) = MGCrew is reduced MP40 dmg (close)
Maxim has 6 man > MG has 4 man (concretely 3/4 of a Sov Crew)
Maxim Merge = MG HT reinforce (due to earlier and cheaper HT than Sov M5)

In conclusion, considering other elements of asymmetry as balanced, by different stats as listed above, the conclusion of difference is the following:

Sov Maxim is still more surviveable and is still cheaper to reinforce, than Ost MG.

Ergo, there is no issue here for Ost preference. Its a miracle, tbh, that the previous survial quotient wasnt "fixed" earlier.

Imo the arc-/dps+ vs suppression+/setup- asymmetric balance formula is sufficient for differentiation. Even the survival difference of 1 vs 3/4, is further exascerbates by reinforcecsts, to the result that asymmetry is NOT balanced. By all rhyme and reason, Ost crews, at their 4 man strength, should also have 1.25 armor to fully integrate with the overall infantry balance of CoH2, ASYMMETRICALLY.

Ost Crews are STILL weaker, and more expensive, even though the asymmetry of corresponding units is already catered for and covered by other differentials which balance out.

Concluding from this, I see no rational reason myself, or expressed by anyone in this thread, why MG 4 man crews are in any way, shape or form, problematic, and LEAST of all, "too survivable", because that is the one specific thing, most certainly, that they are NOT, in-terms of asymmetric balance. In fact, their relative unsurvivability is EXACTLY the DEFINING factor why they are different.

I don't understand what all of this is about.

The MG42 craziness is SERIOUSLY purely psychological. ALL they got, is an extra 80HP. The Maxim still has 160 HP, and can be reinforced on the fly by Conscripts.

In all other aspects, the MG42 is EXACTLY the same as before. Soviets have at least 3 different ways, in the early game, to deal with MG's. If the Ostheer spams MG42's, snipers still rape them. Put that sniper into the Scout car... STILL rapes them.

HEY! The MG42 lasts so much longer against buildings now! Well, if the building is SMALL, use a molotov (the units are tightly packed = more damage). If the building is large (Church), use a Satchel Charge. Only 45 munitions, you deny the Ostheer that building, and if he doesn't exit that building pronto, the entire building goes down. 45 munitions to kill 240 manpower? Yes please.

problem is flanking squads arent doing enough dps to force retreats, there isnt that infantry lethality anymore, but if we complain about this, relic will buff it to the heavens then it becomes a new problem. mosin nagants and kar98 feels like pea shooters at close up, compared to coh1 where riflemen were deadly upclose and can send support teams packing the moment they close in.

buildings are a whole new problem on their own, building counters are largely finicky, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt.

molotovs are great as a counter, if they get close enough but suffers the same issue as infantry dps, it isnt as powerful as say, rifle grenades due to low impact power, very long windup leading to easy dodges. when it does land, it relies on luck, sometimes insta killing a model, more often, it just does nothing but forces a packup and move order and beautiful animation.

comparing all these to riflemen, which had killing power, delivered on a mobile platform and combined with a unit that is worth spamming because of good scaling options, bars + vets. they can hold mg42 spam with good micro.

whereas conscripts, while superior in mobility, their upgrades just plain suck, building 4 conscripts is a surefire tactic to losing, they do not have a general dps boost later on, molotov is just lacking.

and to the dev who replied, i suggest u relook penals and make them into something thats worth their cost and upkeep.

Sure, thats true, but the fact that small arms fire is weak, doesn't make MG42's overpowered.

Small arms fire can be buffed by maybe 10-12% and the difference would be enough to see if its better. No need to crank it up.

Buildings should be left alone right now. I know they are too strong, but the community would need to see what happens once bullets deal more damage.

If I am reading stats correctly, buildings give a 10% bonus to your defenses compared to heavy cover, but omnidirectional as well.

Garrison Cover gives 0.4 received accuracy and 0.5 damage while
Heavy Cover gives 0.5 received accuracy and 0.5 damage as well.

...its a whole different topic though.

Any German that spams MG teams will get screwed by a competent player.

I used MG42 teams every game before the patch. I didn't suddenly start spamming them because they got a 33% HP buff.

MG42 teams are just as vulnerable to everything as they always were. Except now the German player has a realistic level of survivability instead of instantly losing any set up teams to a flamer half track or a Molotov.

Good to know how you Dev guys are thinking. But please, can you guys stop making "hard counters" to the game?

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

COH1 lasts for 6-7 years, those gameplay are still exciting. Every game are so different, there are so many different strat and so many different approach to counter them.
COH2 was just born like 2-3 weeks, and I start getting tired of those IDENTICAL matchup

I feel like not playing Company of Heroes but Company of One Man Army. In COH, We needed a good combined arms to deal with stuff, not ultra hard counters A-move and kill their pray in seconds

+1, get rid of hard counters

Any German that spams MG teams will get screwed by a competent player.

I used MG42 teams every game before the patch. I didn't suddenly start spamming them because they got a 33% HP buff.

MG42 teams are just as vulnerable to everything as they always were. Except now the German player has a realistic level of survivability instead of instantly losing any set up teams to a flamer half track or a Molotov.

Conscripts are quite useless, they are almost no threat even they can flank one of my MG42 and throw molotov.

3 Cons plus a flamer can't do anything to my Gren, MG, MG. They are just too slow and weak compare to yankee Rifles

Only Clown cars is a true threat. But garrison godmode can ease them up MVGame. Flamer Clown Car tried to cook my MG42 but got annihilated, MG42 squad still have 2 men alive.

Traditional wehr Gren MG Gren MG Gren T2 build order works wonder in this patch.
Grab cutoff at start, camp, MG bunker, assault at another cut off, like PE style, messing around until Strafe, then free win. Even he try going T70, only hopelessly seeing its first contact is a Panther. Haven't lose once as Ostheer after this patch MVGame

Cloaked Grens and MGs would be very fun to play with now

There is almost no flanking option except Moscow, maybe Kholodny Ferma too, the others are even more deadly than Semois basepin. All cutoff are choking points, thanks to Relic fail mapmaking. More funny, most cutoff usually have a house nearby.

I need to agree,the problem is the area of MGs dmg,to high imo and second problem is their survivability in buildings but thats the problem of both ger and rusians. But also what i wanna to mention is what Nullist said - in some point i can see the same balance,maybe just Rusians need to stop 4x cons.

i'm seriously writing letters of recommendations for combatmuffin and nullist to Relic for a Balance Developer position.

ost mgs are punished. they just arnt always killed anymore. if you make it retreat with 2 squad members left, you now have that territory and he has to re-inforce and get that ground back...aka punished, not murdered