Great, they switch the MG spamfest to Ostheer

Dunno about health but the damage of Kar98 and Mosin are way too low
I expect the damage of a new Gren is somewhere like what a G43 squad now, and G43 squad should be even more deadly

This I actually agree with, but the problem with implementing it is that weapon teams will die even quicker then. Weapon teams already melt to clowncars so you can't have it both ways.. (clowncars and more script damage)

It just takes too long to kill the MG crew once you've successfully flanked it. You can only do the dance for so long. By "the dance", I mean when your opponent tries to re-position his MG and you move your squad to the opposite side of him once you see him packing up.

Either I get distracted by something else going on and eventually get pinned anyway, or he has time to bring a Gren squad from halfway across the battlefield to push my men off. If I'm lucky, I've managed to take the MG squad down to one or two men, but I didn't manage to gain any more map control.

MG squad survival is now directly equatable with Maxim squads.

The only practical difference is now Maxims DPS + Setuptime vs MGs Suppression + Arc.

Sov crew has reduced DPS rifles, and Ost crew has reduced DPS M40s.

For Sovs claiming it is "too difficult to decrew", it is now exactly as difficult to decrew as a Maxim (notwithstanding Merge).

Machinegun crew survival overall may be too high (which is another topic), but it is now EQUALLY high for both factions.

I'm just wondering how you figured out that they are equally as tough? Did they give the German HMG crew 1.5 armor like Grens and Pgrens? Because at least that isn't reflected on coh2stats... I thought he updated it one last time, maybe just an aftersight.

Ah, you are right.

Ost crews are only 1 armor, meaning Sov crews are still significantly more survivaeble in comparison, due to 2 extra models with same hp and armor.

MG squad survival is now directly equatable with Maxim squads.

The only practical difference is now Maxims DPS + Setuptime vs MGs Suppression + Arc.

Sov crew has reduced DPS rifles, and Ost crew has reduced DPS M40s.

For Sovs claiming it is "too difficult to decrew", it is now exactly as difficult to decrew as a Maxim (notwithstanding Merge).

Machinegun crew survival overall may be too high (which is another topic), but it is now EQUALLY high for both factions.

That's a fair assessment. However, the fact that the MG42 can be built within the first 20 seconds of the game out of T1 makes a big difference. All you have to flank it with in the very-early game are Conscripts. And when you do, you should be rewarded with map control.

And if the Soviet player is forced to build T1 for a clown car to deal with MG42s, then he won't be building T2 anytime soon (if at all). If he does build T2,it will probably just be for a ZiS as there are too many counters to a Maxim on the field by that time. So even though the MGs on both sides are "balanced" and maybe a little OP, the Ostheer player can preclude the Soviet player's chance to ever really use them.

I'm just wondering how you figured out that they are equally as tough? Did they give the German HMG crew 1.5 armor like Grens and Pgrens? Because at least that isn't reflected on coh2stats... I thought he updated it one last time, maybe just an aftersight.

Not really, Maxim can still lolpush their MG trolley in front of MG42 face (at cover) and shout "GTFO"
It can still force retreat a MG42, but the time is much longer, Ostheer can fetch something to save the MG42 map control

But before, retreat after they start shooting each other in 10 secs or say good bye to your MG42

So even though the MGs on both sides are "balanced" and maybe a little OP, the Ostheer player can preclude the Soviet player's chance to ever really use them.

Build Maxims then. This tiering argument of yours doesnt make any sense.

Anyone know why logically and balance wise the maxim gunner does not get pinned? Is it because the maxim gunners are incapable of getting pinned due to the design in the game engine? I don't see another reason why relic is trying to work so hard around that mechanic.

I don't understand why so many people seem determined that the maxim and the mg42 need to be perfectly balanced against each other.

They don't.

They just need to fit into the same game without giving either faction too large of an advantage. The idea is for the factions to be different, so if one machine gun is worse than the other I don't see anything wrong with that.

The problem here is that there was nothing wrong with the MG42 before. The MG42 is and has always been an amazing unit which fulfills it's role very well. It has an incredibly wide angle of fire which makes it very difficult to flank, and very fast suppression which makes it very difficult to escape and will almost certainly require a retreat if it catches your units out.

The MG42 has always been strong against conscripts and other soviet infantry besides the maxim, the mortar, and the sniper. Two of these are obvious counters for an MG42 so there is no problem there. The third, the maxim, is only a counter because it for some reason can still setup while it is suppressed. We had soviet players literally just attack moving maxims at MG42s because they could setup in zero cover while be suppressed by the MG42 and then proceed to kill it.

The obvious solution to this problem was to make it so that the maxim can no longer setup while suppressed. But we didn't get that solution.

Relic decided the best way to deal with this was to reduce the damage of the maxim significantly. Okay, I guess that is alright because maybe the damage on the maxim was a little high to begin with, but it's a dangerous change because you are starting to mess with not just the interaction between the maxim and the MG42, but the maxim and everything else.

This is the beauty of the suppression solution, it literally only affects the specific ridiculous situation that was occurring between the maxim and the mg42.

But then they took it further. They went ahead and added an extra man to the MG42 squad. This change was obviously going to have a dramatic effect on how the early game was going to play out. So now we are seeing it. MG42s are drastically more difficult to dislodge, which is really hurting soviet early game map control. Particularly for soviet players who tend not to spam maxims or scout cars to begin with. It's like they have directly tried to nerf the one soviet opening that wasn't broken.

Anyways, I hope they will undo the extra man on MG42 squads. It just has too much of a negative impact on the soviet early game.

And for the discussion here about the MG42 change I hope that you guys can stop comparing it to the maxim because it really isn't that relevant to the discussion. This isn't mutually assured destruction. It's not a game of "well you guys have this annoying thing so we should have something equally annoying so nobody wants to play!!"

It's about finding a strong balance between the two sides so we can get unique and interesting back and forth games on a regular basis.

For the record, I think German mortars and AT guns are probably well served by getting an extra man. It's just the MG42 that really bothers me.

Its still substantially less surviveable than Maxim.

I don't see the problem.

The entire point of my post was to illustrate that thinking in those kinds of terms is at odds with creating a fun and interesting game. We are not trying to balance the MG42 against the maxim. They do not exist in a vacuum. They exist within the context of their own faction with it's own strengths and weaknesses.

Giving the MG42 an extra man has indeed made it stronger against the maxim, which was the problem they were trying to address. But it has also made it stronger in every other situation, particularly against conscripts and engineers which has a huge impact on the early game.

You have this thing going on in your brain where you think "it's only fair that our squad should get more men because their squad already has more men!"

But if you go about balancing the entire game that way you may as well just turn on mirror matches because that is all you are going to get. I am deliberately avoiding being drawn into a discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the maxim because this is not what this discussion is about. It's about whether or not giving the MG42 an extra man has damaged the balance in ways unrelated to the maxim, and how best to deal with that problem if it exists.

Actually, most of my threads are not talking about balance, still receive tons of L2P troll anyway lol

I am plainly talking about how stupid is Soviet mechanism, and those mechanism making COH2 stupid and not quite enjoyable

With Soviet, as long as I played them from closed beta, I could tell. Skill are not rewarded, exploiting the balance are truely rewarded. Absolutely Brit 2.0

Therefore I won't hesitate to strafe them to volcanic rage if they do those crap to me

Well, if they don't do those crap, I would ignore that strafing doctrine and play fair. But their win rate will be extremely low, since their "normal" units without exploiting anything are shit like

That's up to Relic to fix

Instead of adding people to OST support to match the conscript size RU support teams I would remove 1 or even 2 from the russian team.
I find it a bit silly to see so many units standing around 1 weapon, especially now with the increased german teams.
Now I would keep germans at 3 and decrease russians to 5/4
In return I would change the last man mechanics, he wouldnt flea, he would just be unable to fire unless reinforced. Makes more sense as well.

The problem is NOT the number of men. It has never been. It seems that way, because defensive factors against small arms fire is too big. Armor, Damage, and accuracy.

IMHO, all shots against infantry should ALWAYS penetrate, unless they are specialized infantry. Panzergrenadiersm Guards and Shock troopers should have decent armor rating, but not too high as to waltz out of cover into enemy fire (you've got smoke for that!).

large man crews do improve survivability, no doubt about that, but its mostly a pain in the neck for snipers, not infantry. If infantry had less armor to begin with, and perhaps a bit of extra damage, enemy crews would fall FAST, regardless of numbers.

A single mortar round in the center of an enemy crew, 3 man or 6 man, is enough to ruin that crew's day.

The problem is small arms fire. Now granted: Relic can't simply go in and tweak everything into oblivion. There's an art to it, and they have to be very careful not to overcompensate.

You make great points rtschutter. However, we didn't make the changes to address the Maxim vs. MG42 scenario. It was in response to German weapon team vulnerabilities. Namely, to snipers, tank shells, grenades, etc. More so, the cost of losing a MG42 is much higher for Germans than losing a Maxim for Soviets which compounded the issue.

We did consider the consequence of this change; flanking is now less punishing to the receiving playing. Note I said less punishing, typically you can still force a retreat and in fewer circumstances you can actually decrew the weapon team. If you do manage to do this as Soviets, you get the best of both worlds when you recrew that weapon.

I don't think the extra man has had a major impact on the balance of the MG42, all the same counters still apply. It does reduce the risk of using the MG42, so if anything I might argue that the tactics needed to defeat a well positioned HMG are harder to pull off than the tactics required to positioned said HMG.

That said, we had a very similar reaction to that of the community when we first started testing this change. However, after a few days of testing we begin to formulate new and effective strategies and tactics to take the weapons teams out. Quite frankly, if the German player builds a number of HMG's early on, they are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to a number of hard counters. The M3 and 120mm mortar proved the most effective counter, Molotovs and the use of buildings were a close second.

If you are finding that the German player is garrisoning his MGs, I would suggest getting 1 Penal Battalion and using their satchel grenade. This typically knocks the entire building out.

Quite frankly, if the German player builds a number of HMG's early on, they are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to a number of hard counters. The M3 and 120mm mortar proved the most effective counter, Molotovs and the use of buildings were a close second.

If you are finding that the German player is garrisoning his MGs, I would suggest getting 1 Penal Battalion and using their satchel grenade. This typically knocks the entire building out.

Good to know how you Dev guys are thinking. But please, can you guys stop making "hard counters" to the game?

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

COH1 lasts for 6-7 years, those gameplay are still exciting. Every game are so different, there are so many different strat and so many different approach to counter them.
COH2 was just born like 2-3 weeks, and I start getting tired of those IDENTICAL matchup

I feel like not playing Company of Heroes but Company of One Man Army. In COH, We needed a good combined arms to deal with stuff, not ultra hard counters A-move and kill their pray in seconds

Good to know how you Dev guys are thinking. But please, can you guys stop making "hard counters" to the game?

Oh, he is getting MG42, I need M3, A move and he die
Oh, he has M3, let me get an AC, A move and kill it in seconds.
Oh, he has T2 vehicles, let me get T70 and rape them before Pz4 comes out.
Oh, he has T70, let me GTFO of all my stuff and praying my Pz4 comes faster.

Damn it, those are not skills. Why do you guys make it that casual friendly?
70% of 1v1 automatch are those 4 sentences above. THAT IS STARTING TO BE BORING

COH1 lasts for 6-7 years, those gameplay are still exciting. Every game are so different, there are so many different strat and so many different approach to counter them.
COH2 was just born like 2-3 weeks, and I start getting tired of those IDENTICAL matchup

I agree 100% with this post. The game play (generally soviets) of Company of Heroes 2 relies so much on building hard counters that it takes away the creativity that made vCOH so much fun. The battles are becoming stale and the game play is rather redundant.

I also believe the design of the Soviets is odd because Soviet players are often required to build hard counters to a very generalist, "well rounded", ostheer army.

You make great points rtschutter. However, we didn't make the changes to address the Maxim vs. MG42 scenario. It was in response to German weapon team vulnerabilities. Namely, to snipers, tank shells, grenades, etc. More so, the cost of losing a MG42 is much higher for Germans than losing a Maxim for Soviets which compounded the issue.

We did consider the consequence of this change; flanking is now less punishing to the receiving playing. Note I said less punishing, typically you can still force a retreat and in fewer circumstances you can actually decrew the weapon team. If you do manage to do this as Soviets, you get the best of both worlds when you recrew that weapon.

I don't think the extra man has had a major impact on the balance of the MG42, all the same counters still apply. It does reduce the risk of using the MG42, so if anything I might argue that the tactics needed to defeat a well positioned HMG are harder to pull off than the tactics required to positioned said HMG.

That said, we had a very similar reaction to that of the community when we first started testing this change. However, after a few days of testing we begin to formulate new and effective strategies and tactics to take the weapons teams out. Quite frankly, if the German player builds a number of HMG's early on, they are leaving themselves extremely vulnerable to a number of hard counters. The M3 and 120mm mortar proved the most effective counter, Molotovs and the use of buildings were a close second.

If you are finding that the German player is garrisoning his MGs, I would suggest getting 1 Penal Battalion and using their satchel grenade. This typically knocks the entire building out.

So you basically say that to deal with MG42s now i either have to go T1 all the time or take the 120mm mortar doctrine... that is definitely not how balancing should work. russian is allready restricted. All the changes made last patch restrict them even more.

makes no sense to me sorry. So why not get rid of T2 and t3 all together?
If i have to go T1 there is nothing good at T3 to justify going there and going t2 additionally will probably cost me the game to early P4.
And M3 comes not fast enough and comes with a much higher risk now. So basically if i not yet know what my enemy builds i am forced to go M3, which gets countered so easy by a 222. And what then? the mgs still are alife and i can't get too them because of 222s.

So basically, get rid of all commanders that don't have 120mm and get rid of T2 and T3 because that's what russian is restricted to, to deal with MG42s ... that's some balance.

edit: the above part is ofc a bit exaggerated but it is how it feels to play russian atm, go anything but T1 and T4 and you put yourself at a disadvantage.

I play both factions, and i had not that much of an issue to deal with Maxim spam then it is now to deal with MG42 spam...since you basically nerfed all real counters in one patch.
- Maxim... does not do enough damage anymore
- 120 mm Mortar ... Attack rate nerf
- M3 a lot more risky and also more expensive then the MG42 itself...and a 222 can also come in quite fast.
- snipers, now need a long time to kill them (if the buffed at ranged 222 don't kill them first).


As i said, yes you can deal with them atm, but you restrict russian more and more with each patch for some reason. it is so that i am considering just to stick with German for now because it is so obnoxious to be forced to play that restricted.

Another sensationalist thread full of whining started by Porygon? It must be a day of the week ending in "day."