Comments on the July 10 Patch Notes!

Just in case anyone is interested, the IS-2 IRL had a super low rate of fire because it required a separate shell and powder charge and could only carry 28 rounds of ammunition. It was primarily used as a heavy breakthrough tank and not in an anti-tank role.

Just in case anyone is interested, the IS-2 IRL had a super low rate of fire because it required a separate shell and powder charge and could only carry 28 rounds of ammunition. It was primarily used as a heavy breakthrough tank and not in an anti-tank role.

and that doesn't means this gun is not a effective anti-tank weapon, it's an answer to the German Panther and Tiger Tank, and it has proved itself of capable destroying both Tiger and Panther, and it's frontal armor is impenetrable for Tiger I & Panther at point blank range.


please google before you write down "Not an anti-tank role" I just don't want replying the ignorance ppl's naive comment anymore

Did you deliberately ignore the IS-2's AoE?

Yee, I think you did.

Your adjustments would completely break armor combat in favor of Sov.

If you want Ost equal armor, then play as Ost.

Did you deliberately ignore the IS-2's AoE?

Yee, I think you did.

Your adjustments would completely break armor combat in favor of Sov.

If you want Ost equal armor, then play as Ost.

Thats all well and good to say Nullist but the fact remains it is the most expensive tank in the game. I am all for geting worse tanks but more of them, however making it worse AND more expensive = durp

So it should be better AT than Tiger?

What exactly is problem.

Currently its substantially better AI.

and that doesn't means this gun is not a effective anti-tank weapon, it's an answer to the German Panther and Tiger Tank, and it has proved itself of capable destroying both Tiger and Panther, and it's frontal armor is impenetrable for Tiger I & Panther at point blank range.

please google before you write down "Not an anti-tank role" I just don't want replying the ignorance ppl's naive comment anymore

You don't have to be disrespectful about it, man. You don't get to decide who's ignorant and who isn't.

In contrast to your argument, I could just as easily say that you are ignorant, because you "assumed" in an earlier post, and I quote:

...dev want all soviet players use Ram as a Counter too axis armor and meanwhile making almost all soviet tank overpriced for it's combat capabilities.

I've never read devs saying this is what THEY wanted, so putting words into their mouths is brash, at best. Ignorant at worst.

Sticking to what you said: Yes, the IS-2 is too expensive for what you get, no doubt, but you also have to remember that, in the state of the game as it is, you can support your IS-2 in better ways than the Germans can support their Tiger.

How?

The IS-2, regardless of doctrine, can be supported by SU-85's which, excepting StuG's, is cheaper than any other German AT solution. Its also superior 1 to 1.

Given these two variables, there are more chances that IS-2 will be supported by an SU-85, which outranges Panthers and Tigers. In fact, given the economical contrasts between both factions, it is very hard for the Ostheer to field a Panther AND a Tiger at once (415 fuel). So logically, making it a little harder for the Soviet to bring an SU-85 and an IS-2 (oh look, 416 fuel!!! very similar) is not that unbalanced after all.

Now lets assume both players have battled conservatively. They have played their cards right, and th egame is VERY close. Both bring their heavy Tanks, and both have their T4 tanks... They have spent 415 and 416 fuel each. Big investment.

Unless the German player pulls an elaborate flank, the Soviet player can just take potshots at both targets, and those two targets WILL NOT be able to fire back. The German Smoke is defensive, and it will help them retreat, but NOT win the fight. Spotting scopes are very good, but they require you to be static. Same with Hull down.

Now sure, if both players just have those two tanks, the Tiger will win, most likely. Units are meant to be asymmetrical in the game, but not identical in match ups. Making it less expensive would increase the chances good soviet players can support it with SU-85's, and then the Germans have serious issues escalating that kind of firepower.

I still took the time to reply to you, though...

You don't have to be disrespectful about it, man. You don't get to decide who's ignorant and who isn't.

In contrast to your argument, I could just as easily say that you are ignorant, because you "assumed" in an earlier post, and I quote:



I've never read devs saying this is what THEY wanted, so putting words into their mouths is brash, at best. Ignorant at worst.

Sticking to what you said: Yes, the IS-2 is too expensive for what you get, no doubt, but you also have to remember that, in the state of the game as it is, you can support your IS-2 in better ways than the Germans can support their Tiger.

How?

The IS-2, regardless of doctrine, can be supported by SU-85's which, excepting StuG's, is cheaper than any other German AT solution. Its also superior 1 to 1.

Given these two variables, there are more chances that IS-2 will be supported by an SU-85, which outranges Panthers and Tigers. In fact, given the economical contrasts between both factions, it is very hard for the Ostheer to field a Panther AND a Tiger at once (415 fuel). So logically, making it a little harder for the Soviet to bring an SU-85 and an IS-2 (oh look, 416 fuel!!! very similar) is not that unbalanced after all.

Now lets assume both players have battled conservatively. They have played their cards right, and th egame is VERY close. Both bring their heavy Tanks, and both have their T4 tanks... They have spent 415 and 416 fuel each. Big investment.

Unless the German player pulls an elaborate flank, the Soviet player can just take potshots at both targets, and those two targets WILL NOT be able to fire back. The German Smoke is defensive, and it will help them retreat, but NOT win the fight. Spotting scopes are very good, but they require you to be static. Same with Hull down.

Now sure, if both players just have those two tanks, the Tiger will win, most likely. Units are meant to be asymmetrical in the game, but not identical in match ups. Making it less expensive would increase the chances good soviet players can support it with SU-85's, and then the Germans have serious issues escalating that kind of firepower.

I still took the time to reply to you, though...

i have been trying to get this through people's heads. panther, tiger, is2, all the "worthless" tanks are very good if you didnt lose the rest of your army and you teched properly. these units DO NOT win you the game BY THEMSELVES! but they are a nail in the coffin when i have two p4's out, a panther, and then tiger. that tiger will spell doom for my opponent.

combatmuffin, thank you for this post of reason

they really should just make the is2 cost the same as the tiger though

and that doesn't means this gun is not a effective anti-tank weapon, it's an answer to the German Panther and Tiger Tank, and it has proved itself of capable destroying both Tiger and Panther, and it's frontal armor is impenetrable for Tiger I & Panther at point blank range.


please google before you write down "Not an anti-tank role" I just don't want replying the ignorance ppl's naive comment anymore

Here are some quotes from the ever reliable wikipedia if you don't believe me about the role of this tank:

"German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m.[4] It was the large HE shell the gun fired which was its main asset, proving highly useful and destructive in the anti-personnel role. The size of its gun continued to plague the IS-2, and the two-piece ammunition was difficult to handle and slow to reload (the rate of fire was only about two rounds per minute). Another limitation imposed by the size of its ammunition was the payload: only 28 rounds could be carried inside the tank."

From the section on the operation history of this tank:

"The IS-2 tank first saw combat in early 1944. IS-2s were assigned to separate heavy tank regiments, normally of 21 tanks each.[12] These regiments were used to reinforce the most important attack sectors during major offensive operations. Tactically, they were employed as breakthrough tanks. Their role was to support infantry in the assault, using their large guns to destroy bunkers, buildings, dug-in crew-served weapons, and other 'soft' targets. They were also capable of taking on any German AFVs if required. Once a breakthrough was achieved, lighter, more mobile T-34s would take over the exploitation."


Bold added by me.

You don't have to be disrespectful about it, man. You don't get to decide who's ignorant and who isn't.

In contrast to your argument, I could just as easily say that you are ignorant, because you "assumed" in an earlier post, and I quote:



I've never read devs saying this is what THEY wanted, so putting words into their mouths is brash, at best. Ignorant at worst.

Sticking to what you said: Yes, the IS-2 is too expensive for what you get, no doubt, but you also have to remember that, in the state of the game as it is, you can support your IS-2 in better ways than the Germans can support their Tiger.

How?

The IS-2, regardless of doctrine, can be supported by SU-85's which, excepting StuG's, is cheaper than any other German AT solution. Its also superior 1 to 1.

Given these two variables, there are more chances that IS-2 will be supported by an SU-85, which outranges Panthers and Tigers. In fact, given the economical contrasts between both factions, it is very hard for the Ostheer to field a Panther AND a Tiger at once (415 fuel). So logically, making it a little harder for the Soviet to bring an SU-85 and an IS-2 (oh look, 416 fuel!!! very similar) is not that unbalanced after all.

Now lets assume both players have battled conservatively. They have played their cards right, and th egame is VERY close. Both bring their heavy Tanks, and both have their T4 tanks... They have spent 415 and 416 fuel each. Big investment.

Unless the German player pulls an elaborate flank, the Soviet player can just take potshots at both targets, and those two targets WILL NOT be able to fire back. The German Smoke is defensive, and it will help them retreat, but NOT win the fight. Spotting scopes are very good, but they require you to be static. Same with Hull down.

Now sure, if both players just have those two tanks, the Tiger will win, most likely. Units are meant to be asymmetrical in the game, but not identical in match ups. Making it less expensive would increase the chances good soviet players can support it with SU-85's, and then the Germans have serious issues escalating that kind of firepower.

I still took the time to reply to you, though...

dev reply on the SEGA forum during the beta, "have you tried RAM?".....vehicles were deliberately scale down to balancing the "RAM" Opness

Here are some quotes from the ever reliable wikipedia if you don't believe me about the role of this tank:

"German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m.[4] It was the large HE shell the gun fired which was its main asset, proving highly useful and destructive in the anti-personnel role. The size of its gun continued to plague the IS-2, and the two-piece ammunition was difficult to handle and slow to reload (the rate of fire was only about two rounds per minute). Another limitation imposed by the size of its ammunition was the payload: only 28 rounds could be carried inside the tank."

From the section on the operation history of this tank:

"The IS-2 tank first saw combat in early 1944. IS-2s were assigned to separate heavy tank regiments, normally of 21 tanks each.[12] These regiments were used to reinforce the most important attack sectors during major offensive operations. Tactically, they were employed as breakthrough tanks. Their role was to support infantry in the assault, using their large guns to destroy bunkers, buildings, dug-in crew-served weapons, and other 'soft' targets. They were also capable of taking on any German AFVs if required. Once a breakthrough was achieved, lighter, more mobile T-34s would take over the exploitation."


Bold added by me.

It's proven very effective against most contemporary axis armor except for king tigers, giving it the relatively low rate of fire makes sense, but giving it same damage output as a PZIV is a bad joke from dev, sorry for the rudeness, I've argue with this else-where while some one states out it cannot deal with tanks&it is only a infantry support tank.

The second part of that quote actually reads "They were also capable of taking on any German AFVs if required"

Besides, I am not sure of the exact stats, but the IS-2 feels really sluggish compared to the Tiger, and I'd rather it get a slightly faster turret rotation (or preferably, that you could micro tanks' facings while moving), than a damage buff at the moment, although it could probably use both for 300 fuel!

dev reply on the SEGA forum during the beta, "have you tried RAM?".....vehicles were deliberately scale down to balancing the "RAM" Opness

Following the patch progression, as far as I know, not a single Russian tank has suffered any nerfs whatsoever. In fact, the famous "vehicle patch" as some call it, actually increased most of the Soviet tank's health and decreased the German tanks'. Most tanks that suffered a decrease in health, also enjoyed an armor increase to compensate.

The only Soviet tank I can remember that has suffered a direct nerf is the KV-8 (to its armor).

The T-34, the ramming unit, actually got buffed (slight armor buff), but those buffs do NOTHING to affect the direct consequence of ram. Ram as a mechanic has remain largely unchanged. Sure, the bff helps the T-34 rescue after the ram easier, but the Ram is done.

So I'd disagree that the devs meant Ram to be the one and only AT solution. If it was, they wouldn't have placed doctrinal abilities to mark enemy tanks, or buttons, or AT rifles. In fact, the Soviet army is largely comprised of soft AT. If some of those units receive a well deserved buff (SU-75, I'm looking at you), then the Soviet arsenal becomes even more viable later on.

---------------
About all of that historical discussio.... Read it anywhere: The 88mm gun is still considered the most efficient weapon of the War. It didn't have the most damage, or the most penetration, but it achieved the most effective balance between projectile speed, explosive capability, range, and penetration. So much so, that it was used for many roles, including Anti-Air. No other gun matched that effectiveness and all around capability.

and that doesn't means this gun is not a effective anti-tank weapon, it's an answer to the German Panther and Tiger Tank, and it has proved itself of capable destroying both Tiger and Panther, and it's frontal armor is impenetrable for Tiger I & Panther at point blank range.


please google before you write down "Not an anti-tank role" I just don't want replying the ignorance ppl's naive comment anymore

To quote wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iosif_Stalin_tank

"
German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m.[4] It was the large HE shell the gun fired which was its main asset, proving highly useful and destructive in the anti-personnel role. The size of its gun continued to plague the IS-2, and the two-piece ammunition was difficult to handle and slow to reload (the rate of fire was only about two rounds per minute). Another limitation imposed by the size of its ammunition was the payload: only 28 rounds could be carried inside the tank.[5]

. The gun was very powerful, and while its 122 mm armour-piercing shell had a lower muzzle velocity than similar late-issue German 75 mm and 88 mm guns, Soviet proving-ground tests established that the A-19 could penetrate the front armour of the German Panther tank,[3] and it was therefore considered adequate in the anti-tank role.
"


True, It could maybe penetrate a panther. Nowhere in that article does it say it could penetrate a tiger (especially from the front).

And where on earth did you hear a tiger couldnt penetrate an is-2 at point blank range? That is a ludicrous statement. Again, quoting wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

see the part on the Pzgr. 40 (APCR).

This round used in tigers could punch trhough 171mm sloped armor at 100 metres, and 123mm sloped armor at 1500 metres. The IS-2 had 120mm armour max. see earlier link on is-2. Thus a tiger could penetrate an is-2 at 1500 m.

So you my friend should also google before you post.

The IS-2 was able to kill tanks, sure it might be able to joust with a panther head on. But it was not in any way a match for a standard tiger(nevermind KT) in battle. It was better suited as a breakthrough tank to kill infantry and entrenched positions.

The soviets had other hard counters to tigers in real life: ISU-152 (and SU-152 not in game currently). go google it.

To quote wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iosif_Stalin_tank

"
German Army data on the penetration ranges of the 122 mm A-19 gun against the Panther tank showed it to be much less effective when the Panther stood at a side angle of 30 degrees to the incoming round: the A-19 gun was unable to penetrate the glacis plate of the Panther at any distance, and could only penetrate the bottom front plate of the hull at 100 m.[4] It was the large HE shell the gun fired which was its main asset, proving highly useful and destructive in the anti-personnel role. The size of its gun continued to plague the IS-2, and the two-piece ammunition was difficult to handle and slow to reload (the rate of fire was only about two rounds per minute). Another limitation imposed by the size of its ammunition was the payload: only 28 rounds could be carried inside the tank.[5]

. The gun was very powerful, and while its 122 mm armour-piercing shell had a lower muzzle velocity than similar late-issue German 75 mm and 88 mm guns, Soviet proving-ground tests established that the A-19 could penetrate the front armour of the German Panther tank,[3] and it was therefore considered adequate in the anti-tank role.
"


True, It could maybe penetrate a panther. Nowhere in that article does it say it could penetrate a tiger (especially from the front).

And where on earth did you hear a tiger couldnt penetrate an is-2 at point blank range? That is a ludicrous statement. Again, quoting wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.8_cm_KwK_36

see the part on the Pzgr. 40 (APCR).

This round used in tigers could punch trhough 171mm sloped armor at 100 metres, and 123mm sloped armor at 1500 metres. The IS-2 had 120mm armour max. see earlier link on is-2. Thus a tiger could penetrate an is-2 at 1500 m.

So you my friend should also google before you post.

The IS-2 was able to kill tanks, sure it might be able to joust with a panther head on. But it was not in any way a match for a standard tiger(nevermind KT) in battle. It was better suited as a breakthrough tank to kill infantry and entrenched positions.

The soviets had other hard counters to tigers in real life: ISU-152 (and SU-152 not in game currently). go google it.

World breaking record, tiger I is able to penetrate JS-2 mod 1944 120mm armor at 1500m!!? Reich fanboy won the two world war
BTW, 171mm sloped at 60deg that is equivalent to nearly 340mm armor, which is the frontal protection level of soviet post war second generation t-64A tank, cheers for the reich which lasts 10 thousand years

World breaking record, tiger I is able to penetrate JS-2 mod 1944 120mm armor at 1500m!!? Reich fanboy won the two world war
BTW, 171mm sloped at 60deg that is equivalent to nearly 340mm armor, which is the frontal protection level of soviet post war second generation t-64A tank, cheers for the reich which lasts 10 thousand years

German penetration data tables are against armor sloped at 30 degrees.

No matter how much you want the IS-2 to be an uber tank killer it wasn't. An AFV with a rate of fire of 2 rounds per minute is going to have a rough time winning any engagement unless it scores a kill with the first shot. Besides that was not the role of this tank. It was designed to take out fortifications and soft targets (AKA infantry), but could engage other armor if necessary.

please see these short videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je2OAijFhjI&feature=share&list=PLF086CAAB8DA1CACB
note 1:27,
4:23 You are saying that the IS2 can not penetrate the german heavy armor. Guns were tested for german tigers.
5:40 tank is considered anti-tank too. on the result of the Kursk battle
6:54 d25t
7:10 no comments
and 9:00

ISU 152
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgU9njzPfzk&feature=share&list=PLF086CAAB8DA1CACB

Not a wiki, and not a biased russian video. Reports and pictures for the ww2 history fanbois going off topic. (You'll need djvu for some of the files)

...so yeah. Patch notes from July 10 lol

The driver now has his observation device embedded in his skull, which doesn't increase his effectiveness any.

Omg, made my day.

World breaking record, tiger I is able to penetrate JS-2 mod 1944 120mm armor at 1500m!!? Reich fanboy won the two world war
BTW, 171mm sloped at 60deg that is equivalent to nearly 340mm armor, which is the frontal protection level of soviet post war second generation t-64A tank, cheers for the reich which lasts 10 thousand years

OK, mr soviet fanboy...

If you read the tables I linked you will see that the 171mm is already for 30 degree sloped armor.

Im not saying the IS-2 was useless, I am saying that the Tiger could penetrate the IS-2 at very long range.

To quote you : "the front armor of the IS-2 was impenetrable by tiger/panther at point blank range."

This is simply wrong.

The IS-2 was probably a useful and a good tank, but it was by no means "un-penetrable"

please see these short videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je2OAijFhjI&feature=share&list=PLF086CAAB8DA1CACB
note 1:27,
4:23 You are saying that the IS2 can not penetrate the german heavy armor. Guns were tested for german tigers.
5:40 tank is considered anti-tank too. on the result of the Kursk battle
6:54 d25t
7:10 no comments
and 9:00

ISU 152
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgU9njzPfzk&feature=share&list=PLF086CAAB8DA1CACB

4:23 they are talking about the 85mm gun. This was the gun of the t34/85. This is NOT the gun used on the IS-2.

7:10 They tested the gun against the side armor of a panther. If you read a bit about panthers, their side armor was known to be weak. German commanders advised panthers not to expose their sides. Their front was a lot thicker.

Sure the IS-2 could penetrate the side of a panther. But it is still not equal to a tiger.

9:00 These documentations might aswell have involved panzer4's or stug's. IS-2 would be much more dangerous to panzer4. Tiger would not need to fear an IS-2 unless from the rear or very close range. Tiger would need to be weary of ISU 152.(The ISU 152 was the real counter russia had to the tiger. Not the IS-2.

The ISU-152 could knock off the turret of a tiger, It was very formidable but slow to fire/turn.