Tiger vs Pershing

To be honest I'm perfectly fine with the Pershing not being as good as the Tiger. I think it really fits with USF's playstyle that the thing is a glass cannon and is more mobile. Plus I think that's unfair to give USF just as good late game tank despite having a strong early game.

I just wish it's range was 50, then it'd be perfect imo.

coh2stats is a good start to start digging up stats / getting a quick reference. However it doesn't tell the full story. Sadly, the site doesn't include some of the most relevant stats for stuff like scatter etc

I would like to recommend CoH2 Tools Attribute editor. However, according to Cruzz, the stats file have not been updated to match the live version ever since 25 February.

Some of the missing stats are the following:

Pershing has plain better AoE than the Tiger:


(that's why people complain it's a wipe machine)
(Note about garrison clearing: the Pershing can clear ANY garrison in 8 shots)

Horizontal scatter (degrees angle):
- Pershing: 6
- Tiger: 7.5

(horizontal scatter makes a massive difference when you are trying to snipe infantry/AT guns from afar)
(I have no idea how scatter veterancy applies to weapons)

Turret traverse speed (horizontal/vertical):
- Pershing: 35/35
- Tiger 19/10

(for comparison, Comet traverse speed: 40/17)

Target size:
- Pershing: 24
- Tiger: 26

The penetrating shot of the Pershing has stats:

- 240 damage
- 70 range
- 300 - 400 penetration (depending on distance)

I believe that the main reason that Pershing has a clipped range at 45 is because the doctrine comes with the Combined Arms ability:

"Infantry: -20% Reload +30% Accuracy, +35% sight
Vehicle: +35% sight, -30% Reload, +5 range"

A 50 + 5 range Pershing might have been a bit OP. Thus, they might have resolved to clipping the range down to 45 + 5 range. (with the sight bonus, the Pershing gains a sight range of 47.25).

Speed, Heavy Crush and Turret traverse do make a massive difference in tank engagements, when you can pop in, fire a few potshots and pop out again before the enemy has a chance to track you. Regarding the pentrating shot, I think you should treat it more as a finisher than an opener. E.g., when you do finally manage to get that flank on that JP4, let the Pershing fire a few shots first, and then, when the JP4 is at low health you can seal the deal (and wipe the veterancy off).

PS: It never occurred to me before that a Vet3 Tiger can catch up to Pershing's top speed like that. At Vet3 with Blitzkrieg on (+15% speed, -25% received accuracy), the Tiger could outrun the Pershing; provided that the Tiger had decent acceleration to make use of that speed.

PS2: Pershing also has a chance to stun enemy tanks with the auto-grenades (25% chance). I guess that helps with immersion a bit, since it's a well-known fact about WW2 tank combat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrrCY7dgaqs

I believe that the main reason that Pershing has a clipped range at 45 is because the doctrine comes with the Combined Arms ability:

A 50 + 5 range Pershing might have been a bit OP. Thus, they might have resolved to clipping the range down to 45 + 5 range. (with the sight bonus, the Pershing gains a sight range of 47.25).

I doubt it. I think it was less of a design choice and more of an unintended bug.

Because the Combined Arms ability removes the Pershing's -50% reload speed vet. Looking at the stats and ability, sure... the sight range and -30% reload speed seems great. Testing in-game, the combined arms ability screws with a Vet3 Pershing's reload speed. I have no idea what is going on there, I just know it screws up. If it were intended to work correctly, the Pershing should have a -80% total reload speed.

There's no difference in reload speed between a vet0 Pershing and a vet3 Pershing when using the combined arms ability. That's an obvious glitch right there. Should test in-game with cheat command. Spawn 2 Pershings, make one of them vet3 and use combined arms while ground attacking or firing at a tank. Same reload speed.

PS: Actually, testing it. Vet3 Pershing shoots about 0.5~1.0 seconds slower than a Vet0 Pershing with combined arms.

I doubt it. I think it was less of a design choice and more of an unintended bug.

Because the Combined Arms ability removes the Pershing's -50% reload speed vet. Looking at the stats and ability, sure... the sight range and -30% reload speed seems great. Testing in-game, the combined arms ability screws with a Vet3 Pershing's reload speed. I have no idea what is going on there, I just know it screws up. If it were intended to work correctly, the Pershing should have a -80% total reload speed.

There's no difference in reload speed between a vet0 Pershing and a vet3 Pershing when using the combined arms ability. That's an obvious glitch right there. Should test in-game with cheat command. Spawn 2 Pershings, make one of them vet3 and use combined arms while ground attacking or firing at a tank. Same reload speed.

its intented, someone explained it a while ago. it would totally be broken to have a pershing shooting 80% faster with more range and sight.

its intented, someone explained it a while ago. it would totally be broken to have a pershing shooting 80% faster with more range and sight.

Right... must be intended for a Vet0 Pershing to shoot faster than a Vet3 Pershing. Logic. This community is lulzy.'

After testing it, I think I finally know what's going on. I think the combined arms ability is setting (not adding) reload speed to a flat -30%. This seems to override the -50% reload speed the Pershing gets at vet3.

So you lose about -20% reload speed when using combined arms with the Vet3 Pershing.

Right... must be intended for a Vet0 Pershing to shoot faster than a Vet3 Pershing. Logic. This community is lulzy.

oh then i missed the post the guy made. he made some math and result was pershings RoF is the same with combined arms with or without vet 3. so yes vet 3 is "useless" for the time combined arms is active.

atleast i dont have a fetish for little anime grills

I doubt it. I think it was less of a design choice and more of an unintended bug.

Because the Combined Arms ability removes the Pershing's -50% reload speed vet. Looking at the stats and ability, sure... the sight range and -30% reload speed seems great. Testing in-game, the combined arms ability screws with a Vet3 Pershing's reload speed. I have no idea what is going on there, I just know it screws up. If it were intended to work correctly, the Pershing should have a -80% total reload speed.

There's no difference in reload speed between a vet0 Pershing and a vet3 Pershing when using the combined arms ability. That's an obvious glitch right there. Should test in-game with cheat command. Spawn 2 Pershings, make one of them vet3 and use combined arms while ground attacking or firing at a tank. Same reload speed.

PS: Actually, testing it. Vet3 Pershing shoots about 0.5~1.0 seconds slower than a Vet0 Pershing with combined arms.

That's a good catch.

I actually tested it myself with 3 Pershings:
- 1 Vet0 Pershing inside the Aura
- 1 Vet3 Pershing inside the Aura
- 1 Vet3 Pershing outside the Aura

If my intuition is correct, it seems that the Aura bonuses override the the veterancy bonuses. Thus, Both in-Aura units fired at the same speed, while the out-of-aura Vet3 Pershing fired faster than either in-Aura unit. None of the stats (aim time, reload etc) have a min-max variance. Thus, I believe you're onto something.

I think you should report it at the bugs section

That's a good catch.

I actually tested it myself with 3 Pershings:
- 1 Vet0 Pershing inside the Aura
- 1 Vet3 Pershing inside the Aura
- 1 Vet3 Pershing outside the Aura

If my intuition is correct, it seems that the Aura bonuses override the the veterancy bonuses. Thus, Both in-Aura units fired at the same speed, while the out-of-aura Vet3 Pershing fired faster than either in-Aura unit. None of the stats (aim time, reload etc) have a min-max variance. Thus, I believe you're onto something.

I think you should report it at the bugs section

Yep, that's what I got from my testing too. I wonder if this also overrides any other tanks or infantry vet bonuses or if this is just a Pershing thing.

Just look at the "exclusive" field in the attrib editor or xml. No testing needed.

Combined arms infantry and vehicle aura modifiers are set to true meaning Other similar modifiers given from vet, or another aura wouldn't stack on the combined arms one.

Technically that means a vet 3 Pershing using combined arms would reload slower. But it also means you're getting more sight and range in exchange for 20% slower fire rate.

It's best suited for low vet vehicles pretty much.

Same thing with the infantry aura, it's not giving you crazy stats on your riflemen. It makes a vet 0 perform about on par with a vet3 rifle, and makes a vet3 rifle simply see farther.

Arrrgh.

Wouldn't it just be better to completely remove the reload/accuracy stuff altogether then? It seems highly misleading that you would pay for an ability to make your tanks/infantry actually perform worse (although the ability implies they would perform better)?

Because...

Lelic.