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OKW infantry vet vs UKF is broken

11 Mar 2016, 10:02 AM
#41
avatar of Rekkettenn

Posts: 76

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2016, 19:01 PMRollo
I know it's only been a day since the patch, but I think there is a rather obvious problem here once you play a game as brits vs OKW after the 20min mark.

It seems like the terminator OKW from WFA alpha are back in all their glory

Now certain units like volks/sturms/MG34 are fine, but the problem here is obers/jaegers/panzerfusillers that seem to utterly destroy any number of British infantry once they get vet.

Spend 300mp, 50 fuel and 120 muni for double bren tommies? too bad one vet 5 Jaeger squad seems to solo your units anyway while he buys tanks.

Replay attached highlights the problems imo, 5 man double bren units not even tickling OKW inf. Just hold out till jagdpanzer/vet inf and you win as axis

https://www.coh2.org/replay/50478/vet-needs-an-overhaul


yes but i think its what germans deserve after beeing weakest factions in game for some years now. it reflects the superior training and willpower of the reichs army
11 Mar 2016, 10:43 AM
#42
avatar of Sirlami
Donator 11

Posts: 422 | Subs: 3

No it doesn't always drop, but IS always lose their Brens on the death of models 4 and 3. That didn't happen in the tests above.

I'm wondering why as it makes a big difference in tests like that.


It is kinda random, but thats what coh2 is. And they did always lose the second bren.
11 Mar 2016, 10:49 AM
#43
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

They always lose both Brens as the scoped Enfields have priority. Hence a 2 man IS 3 Vet squad never has Brens.

Unless this has been fixed, which no-one seems to be saying, then why didn't this happen in the tests above? Doesn't seem representative of in game.
11 Mar 2016, 10:58 AM
#44
avatar of Sirlami
Donator 11

Posts: 422 | Subs: 3

Well maybe it was fixed partly? Also that was heavily favoured on the tommies because ingame those terminators would have been vet 2/3. So yes that wasn't a real scenario, but it did prove that okw vet does not walk allover brits like op claimed.
11 Mar 2016, 11:01 AM
#45
avatar of Ful4n0

Posts: 345

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2016, 19:28 PMClick


You do because vet 3 IS with 2x bren won't even let PF get the vets because they rape everything early game. Manpower bleed is so strong that you will feel like fuel ain't even a problem to get a tank out.



yeahhh there are tons of IS vet3 with 2x bren at 2CP mark when Pfussies hit the field, yeahh
11 Mar 2016, 11:07 AM
#46
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

I still think the OP has a valid point. Your tests showed the out of cover difference in effectiveness to be murderous and mere parity in heavy cover ( Bren dependant).

Given that the Axis has access to a wide variety of cheap and deadly grenades to chase Tommies out of cover with, and are clearly superior in the open, their Vet bonusses seem to be a bit over the top.
11 Mar 2016, 11:09 AM
#48
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 747 | Subs: 2



yes but i think its what germans deserve after beeing weakest factions in game for some years now. it reflects the superior training and willpower of the reichs army


:rofl:
11 Mar 2016, 11:20 AM
#49
avatar of Sirlami
Donator 11

Posts: 422 | Subs: 3

I still think the OP has a valid point. Your tests showed the out of cover difference in effectiveness to be murderous and mere parity in heavy cover ( Bren dependant).

Given that the Axis has access to a wide variety of cheap and deadly grenades to chase Tommies out of cover with, and are clearly superior in the open, their Vet bonusses seem to be a bit over the top.


His point's are absolutely not valid

the problem here is obers/jaegers/panzerfusillers that seem to utterly destroy any number of British infantry once they get vet.


5 man double bren units not even tickling OKW inf. Just hold out till jagdpanzer/vet inf and you win as axis
11 Mar 2016, 11:28 AM
#50
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

OKW needs vet revamp, their infantry in late game absolutely insane, nothing short of tanks (they shred m20s, lol) can fight vet5 obers. And tanks sometimes not an option. Obers should be powerfull, no BS, but in current state they absolute terminators.
11 Mar 2016, 11:53 AM
#51
avatar of Frost

Posts: 1024 | Subs: 1

Abusing doesn't work anymore mr. Rollo?
11 Mar 2016, 12:13 PM
#52
avatar of Spinflight

Posts: 680

OPs points are valid and back up my own experience.

Several points...

Unless the bug has been fixed ( which no-one is saying) your tests were very strange at best.

Even your tests only showed parity in the IS's strongest suit.

Your tests conclusively showed that IS get destroyed out of cover.

Your tests were not real game centric. Add in a grenade of some description or of mere moving and firing and the Tommies get chased out of cover and are destroyed quickly.

IS of such configuration are both expensive and unuseable in game. Feel free to build them however losing 60 or 120 MU per engagement is not a good use of resources.
11 Mar 2016, 12:25 PM
#53
avatar of PencilBatRation

Posts: 794

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2016, 11:28 AMJadame!
Obers should be powerfull, no BS, but in current state they absolute terminators.
Again, If you are slow enough to let obers reach vet 5 then yeah you should stop playing allies altogether RIGHT NOW
11 Mar 2016, 12:52 PM
#54
avatar of Jadame!

Posts: 1122

Again, If you are slow enough to let obers reach vet 5 then yeah you should stop playing allies altogether RIGHT NOW


Good advice... for a compstomp.
11 Mar 2016, 12:58 PM
#55
avatar of Kreatiir

Posts: 2819

Again, If you are slow enough to let obers reach vet 5 then yeah you should stop playing allies altogether RIGHT NOW


Deez posts made by forumwarriors..

What I actually read is this;
11 Mar 2016, 14:43 PM
#57
avatar of whitesky00

Posts: 468



Deez posts made by forumwarriors..

What I actually read is this;


It's okay. He does it on every thread as long as you're not pro-Axis. Just report the post and leave it at that. Fanboism at its best.
11 Mar 2016, 15:04 PM
#59
avatar of LeStrigoi

Posts: 30

OPs points are valid and back up my own experience.

Several points...

Unless the bug has been fixed ( which no-one is saying) your tests were very strange at best.

Even your tests only showed parity in the IS's strongest suit.

Your tests conclusively showed that IS get destroyed out of cover.

Your tests were not real game centric. Add in a grenade of some description or of mere moving and firing and the Tommies get chased out of cover and are destroyed quickly.

IS of such configuration are both expensive and unuseable in game. Feel free to build them however losing 60 or 120 MU per engagement is not a good use of resources.


The tests were not strange, in that they were simply showing top vet OKW infantry against UK top vet infantry. He purported to be doing no more than that. Indeed, it was making a contribution to the thread, which says that OKW elite vet inf is too strong against UK inf. That implies combat effectiveness when fighting each other. Indeed the OP said:

Spend 300mp, 50 fuel and 120 muni for double bren tommies? too bad one vet 5 Jaeger squad seems to solo your units anyway while he buys tanks.


He is saying that one JLI can solo your units, which is quite obviously not true. The video is a rather helpful in rebuking the OP's general point, which seems to go to nothing more but isolated 1v1 (or indeed 1v2) combat effectiveness. In any case, this is arguable what they are designed to do, counter infantry. What else does OKW have in their roster that counters allied infantry? The HMG that is shit and doctrinal? The Panther? Save up for a KT? Flack half track (lol)? The fact of the matter is that that, if their elite infantry does not beat Allied infantry, what else will?

If we are to take your point about grenades (which Tommies also have) and "realistic game scenarios" on board, then a huge number of variables would need to be taken into account. Some of these include:

-First and foremost, is that it is extremely rare that Obersoldaten get to vet 5, same with Pzfusils and JLI. It is extremely difficult with most OKW elite infantry, except for fusils, because they have 4 models, and often terrible unit spacing.This means that, for the most part, your units will get wiped extremely easily, by tanks, arty, mines, etc.
-As a follow on from the first point, you are always at a vet disadvantage with elite units, because Tommies are out much earlier, which gives them the chance to earn vet before you do.
-Then there is the fact that with 2 out of these 3 OKW units you will have no HMGs to provide support, whereas UKF to. This obviously decreases OKW's combat effectiveness.
-Then the fact that many UKF tanks are more versatile at dealing with infantry aswell as vehicles, and you also have good AI late tanks to depend on, unlike OKW.
-OKW on the other hand have the advantage of more indirect fire

The core question is really whether OKW infantry is over performing. With the exception of Pschreck Volks, I don't think this is true. They are just designed strangely. In some ways they are, in others they are not. They become incredibly powerful because they are difficult to counter when backed up with 4 Volks, because vehicles are so hard to use against them. On the other hand, in many cases they arrive late, take ages to vet up, and also are prone to getting wiped.

I think they just suffer from bad design, rather than being over powered. They have a huge power spike, which is difficult to counter. But saying they are overperforming without large caveats is not true, by any stretch of the imagination.




11 Mar 2016, 15:15 PM
#60
avatar of Rollo

Posts: 738

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2016, 21:45 PMSirlami
Alright i think its time for some hard facts


with all due respect this proves nothing outside of a vacuum scenario

Tommies will not be fighting in perfect cover 80% of the time and they take a hell of a lot more micro to get the DPS out of their brens rather than vet Panzerfus/Obers/Jaeger that can A move across the tac map and win engagements.

Then after the second engagement your vet 3 tommies will drop their weapons and give them to then enemy due to how their scoped rifles work.

Really watch my replay, there was a engagement around the 27min mark where my vet 3 5man double bren sapper was routed in the space of 6 seconds and then the last two guys get sniped by the jaeger squad on retreat (half his squads of course kitted out with Bren guns my sections/sappers had dropped).

I'll love to see an excuse for vet 5 working like that while UKF spend crazy MP on upgrades just to attempt to "not get walked all over"

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