Russians get the greatest AT & ARTY gun out of T1?

T34 only needs a buff if SU-85 is nerfed. I don't understand why people hate T34's so much when they crush Panthers/Tigers/Elefants into the ground AND provide decent anti infantry in the meantime.

MJ, while I think Nullist is being a dick about it, I have to agree with him that you come off both biased and uninformed.

Says the guy who just said t34s can crush panthers. LOL

Ive been following that site closely since well into closed beta.

I've known these stats all along, whereas you just pull stuff out your ass.

Increasing T34s penetration to 10 below PIVs and reducing its fuel cost is quite possibly the most stupid suggestion I have read throughout the entire history of this games development.


I have nothing else to add to you. Don't address me in any of your posts.

Ya, sure, because nobody else purposed the EXACT same thing, blow me

I think this thread was about ZiS Guns lol

Jesus wept. Can you two (mjsegaline and Nullist) get a room? SOMETHING. Anything. Just not here.

I've already said I've discontinued replying to him.
Guy keeps coming at me.

A lot of people keep discussing PIV's and T34's. They are slightly related to the discussion, because a lot of people are still under the belief that the T34 has to be a tank(a form of AT). I agree its misleading in your first few plays, but dammit, once you realize its not you gotta let it go: soviets have wonderful AT now, and the SU-85 is proof of that.

The Dave replied to me in wise words: The panther is shit now. It has good stats, but the range got nerfed, the cost got increased, etc. Spamming PIV's has a much better impact.

Why do I mention this in a Soviet AT thread? Here's why: People keep dissing PIV's as too powerful. Two T34's, properly used, should always win against a PIV. In the event RNG or that particular scenario didn't bode well, there's ram. You-should-not-lose.

Here's a Sun Tzu style tip: If you think you are not winning an engagement versus a PIV, then avoid it altogether if possible. Once that PIV gets Vet 2, its armor becomes VERY good, and you are going to have yourself a tough nut to crack. Then it doesn't matter how many T34's you use to ram, that PIV will wreak havoc. So avoid it, and use SU-85's to negate pretty much all default German tanks.

PRESTO!

A lot of people keep discussing PIV's and T34's. They are slightly related to the discussion, because a lot of people are still under the belief that the T34 has to be a tank(a form of AT). I agree its misleading in your first few plays, but dammit, once you realize its not you gotta let it go: soviets have wonderful AT now, and the SU-85 is proof of that.

The Dave replied to me in wise words: The panther is shit now. It has good stats, but the range got nerfed, the cost got increased, etc. Spamming PIV's has a much better impact.

Why do I mention this in a Soviet AT thread? Here's why: People keep dissing PIV's as too powerful. Two T34's, properly used, should always win against a PIV. In the event RNG or that particular scenario didn't bode well, there's ram. You-should-not-lose.

Here's a Sun Tzu style tip: If you think you are not winning an engagement versus a PIV, then avoid it altogether if possible. Once that PIV gets Vet 2, its armor becomes VERY good, and you are going to have yourself a tough nut to crack. Then it doesn't matter how many T34's you use to ram, that PIV will wreak havoc. So avoid it, and use SU-85's to negate pretty much all default German tanks.

PRESTO!

Now, whats your idea for strafing run? That SOB is ridiculously insane vdjvbidsbgjbvd uber death.

Increase T-34's damage/penatration or it's armor/health

Don't touch SU-85, instead make the Panther cheaper.

Says the guy who just said t34s can crush panthers. LOL

95 fuel to ram a 165 fuel tank. Yes, they crush them. This is what I'm talking about... it's like you don't even play the game.

95 fuel to ram a 165 fuel tank. Yes, they crush them. This is what I'm talking about... it's like you don't even play the game.

Ram is a last resort. Nobody wants to send a 240 manpower 95 fuel unit flying into anything if they dont have to. Unfortunatly, its not much good for anything else. Kills infantry pretty decent, big deal, my t70 does a way better job at that for a lot cheaper and can avoid the big guys

57 posts of insanity...

This thread is about ZiS-3. Stop going off topic.

Now, whats your idea for strafing run? That SOB is ridiculously insane vdjvbidsbgjbvd uber death.

I have talked about strafing run in other topics. This is not relevant to it, and even if it was: most Soviet AT solutions are not affected by strafing run.

Soviet AT used to be lackluster before open beta. During the Stress Test prior to open Beta, they performed a change:

They buffed the SU-85: armor and AI capabilities. They nerfed the Panther :range, armor and cost, they improved speed a tiny bit. imho, this was too much, they should have done one or the other, then iterate as necessary.

I think the Panther should definetely be stronger head to head than anything the Soviets can bring non doctrinally, the catch being that Germans are designed around being a little more defensive, so the Soviets need to use their versatility to supplement against these german heavy units: they have barrages, they have button, they have at nades, wonderful inexpensive mines.

Vehicles are supposed to be the driving force behind the german army. The soviet army dictates the pace of the game at the beginning, and should mobilize to delay those vehicles from arriving. If they do arrive, you have doctrinal options to facilitate handling a situation where th egermans have arrived with heavy vehicles (mark vehicle, guards, cloaked ATG's, etc).

Ram is a last resort. Nobody wants to send a 240 manpower 95 fuel unit flying into anything if they dont have to. Unfortunatly, its not much good for anything else. Kills infantry pretty decent, big deal, my t70 does a way better job at that for a lot cheaper and can avoid the big guys

Yeah.... you just don't get it.

Anyways, ZiS is dumb. Kills tanks, kills emplaced infantry, kills snipers. Is a bitch to decrew. T70 decrews pak within 2 shots after flanking. Flame HT takes 15-20 seconds just to decrew a ZiS. Then you watch it get remanned because you don't have a unit that can destroy the leftover ZiS.

I have talked about strafing run in other topics. This is not relevant to it, and even if it was: most Soviet AT solutions are not affected by strafing run.

Soviet AT used to be lackluster before open beta. During the Stress Test prior to open Beta, they performed a change:

They buffed the SU-85: armor and AI capabilities. They nerfed the Panther :range, armor and cost, they improved speed a tiny bit. imho, this was too much, they should have done one or the other, then iterate as necessary.

I think the Panther should definetely be stronger head to head than anything the Soviets can bring non doctrinally, the catch being that Germans are designed around being a little more defensive, so the Soviets need to use their versatility to supplement against these german heavy units: they have barrages, they have button, they have at nades, wonderful inexpensive mines.

Vehicles are supposed to be the driving force behind the german army. The soviet army dictates the pace of the game at the beginning, and should mobilize to delay those vehicles from arriving. If they do arrive, you have doctrinal options to facilitate handling a situation where th egermans have arrived with heavy vehicles (mark vehicle, guards, cloaked ATG's, etc).

Yeah.. good post.

I know things got derailed a bit, but since I opened this thread its okay if I bring the topic back to the SU-85....

All you need to know about the current balance of the game was summed up rather nicely by Aimstrong in his interview after beating Sepha for the COH2 championship:

Aimstrong: While watching the games I could see that the game seemed very close. While playing it, I never felt I was completely on the back foot. When you play the same opponent for so many matches, you realize some of his habits. Sepha made a very good attempt to handle my Soviets in G5.

I think the turning point was his attempt to checkmate me by driving the flamer half-track inside my base. With the way AT nades work, it was a very risky move but with high rewards. It was doomed to fail since I had called in a second Guards squad to replace a lost Conscript squad. I never felt the half-track stood a change against 2 Guards and AT nades.

Although I was off the field, my unit composition was intact. With the Soviet snipers, this means that I could take the map back with relative ease. All his teching options would eventually be countered by my SU-85, so it was only a question of time. Thus I don't feel it was possible for him to use his map control advantage that much.

The last part in bold is especially telling. EVENTHOUGH he had been pushed off the field (something that in the original COH meant certain death) he felt CONFIDENT that he could with 'relative ease' take the map back. Why? Because all of the tech advantage that ostheer could get from owning the ENTIRE map--even in the capable hands of Sepha--could be simply wiped out with one unit and one unit only... the SU-85.

Exactly. SU-85, in the ahnds of a capable player, negates T3 and T4, both in strength and economy.

If, however, the SU-85 was a strong resource investment for the Soviets, then not only is building multiple units harder, its also a grave penalty to lose them.

Soviet snipers are amazing at harassment, specifically because of low squad numbers, and a maxim can just finish off whatever survives the volleys.

Exactly. SU-85, in the ahnds of a capable player, negates T3 and T4, both in strength and economy.

If, however, the SU-85 was a strong resource investment for the Soviets, then not only is building multiple units harder, its also a grave penalty to lose them.

Soviet snipers are amazing at harassment, specifically because of low squad numbers, and a maxim can just finish off whatever survives the volleys.

I don't have a problem with the cost, but how it performs. Why? Because if well micro'd it can come 2-3 minutes later and still kick ass, while at the same time being almost unkillable because it engages from insane range and is pretty durable even if they manage to get close (which ideally won't even be possible due to a reverse button and AT nades).

Firefly in vCoH did good damage and had great range, but killing that thing up close was like slicing through hot butter. Right now the SU85 isn't a glass cannon, it's a hardened steel cannon. Flanking them vs a competent player is not rewarding because by the time you manage to kill it, you've probably got all your tanks AT naded and you're going to be lucky to escape from any other SU85/Zis that they have, just for killing ONE tank destroyer.

^^^^ everytime I plan an attack on an su85 or multipe su85s the results are horrendous. I use combined arms all the time and bring my pgrnsz with shrecks, grens, at, and tanks. Just as an example a couple games ago I managed a tiger and a p4 wth some inf squads an mg and a pak in an attack against entrenched sovs. He had 3 su85s and infantryy.. I attacked with some units flanking and p4 flanking also with tiger coming head on. Well... lets say my tiger barely got a chance to do dmg before it exploded in fiery glory. He lost 2 su85s while my entire attacking force was decimated. Luckily the loss of 2 su85s was more than he could bear and he quit (thank god). Point being that even well coordinated attacks on su85s is still damn difficult. You better believe you will come out of that battle bruised and barely able to function.

^^^^ everytime I plan an attack on an su85 or multipe su85s the results are horrendous. I use combined arms all the time and bring my pgrnsz with shrecks, grens, at, and tanks. Just as an example a couple games ago I managed a tiger and a p4 wth some inf squads an mg and a pak in an attack against entrenched sovs. He had 3 su85s and infantryy.. I attacked with some units flanking and p4 flanking also with tiger coming head on. Well... lets say my tiger barely got a chance to do dmg before it exploded in fiery glory. He lost 2 su85s while my entire attacking force was decimated. Luckily the loss of 2 su85s was more than he could bear and he quit (thank god). Point being that even well coordinated attacks on su85s is still damn difficult. You better believe you will come out of that battle bruised and barely able to function.

What you are talking about ? infantry >> SU85, Panther >>> SU85, Flanking Panzer >>> SU85. Pak >>> SU

You dont fight Su85 head to head, most reich players just going for tank fire exchange. And dont you think that same attack vs 3 panzer will be difficult too ? its like you rech players want easy wins everytime... Relic nerfed M3, Maxim, mortars, only one good unit thats left is f... SU85. I gived up alread... good luck with finding games in few weeks.