Their inf need the 2 additional model to be effective. Shocks/PTRS have a high reinforce cost so their additional models are justified. Cons are inaccurate so having more models can help them to stay in engagements a bit longer.
However their support tier does'n need this, as they are one of the best ones in game. PM41 has a low scatter value, often resulting in instagibs. The maxim/2shK are a whole balance issue themselves. Zis walls supporting IS2 are quite hard to get rid of as well.
So I think the crew size should be reduced to 4 and brought in line with the other 4 factions. That would be a positive step towards getting rid of cheese and frustrating gameplay.
6-Men crew for SU support units doesn't make sense.
11 Feb 2016, 09:41 AM
#1
Posts: 794
11 Feb 2016, 09:56 AM
#2
Posts: 295 | Subs: 1
The problem is that these units also have guns. So for excample if you flanked x2 maxims with damaged squad, its a huge change to lose few ones to them.
I would rather say, that maxim should be cheapor (like 225-230MP) or have like M2 fire arch, but be 4 men crew.
Mortars could stay as they are, but 120mm mortar should be much more venerable to counter-fire, since it has 6 (!) men crew right now, because it can operate with 1 model.
ZiS ... I dont know, its not good as PaK or British AT gun, but at the same time its really hard to kill the crew.
I would rather say, that maxim should be cheapor (like 225-230MP) or have like M2 fire arch, but be 4 men crew.
Mortars could stay as they are, but 120mm mortar should be much more venerable to counter-fire, since it has 6 (!) men crew right now, because it can operate with 1 model.
ZiS ... I dont know, its not good as PaK or British AT gun, but at the same time its really hard to kill the crew.
11 Feb 2016, 10:01 AM
#3
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
ZiS ... I dont know, its not good as PaK or British AT gun, but at the same time its really hard to kill the crew.
personally i rate the zis higher than pak or 6pdr because the barrage ability adds some nice AI power to it. so its never useless in a game. paks and 6pdr can often be a dead weight.
and its AT capabilitys are enough to deal with any armor.
11 Feb 2016, 10:07 AM
#4
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The problem is that these units also have guns. So for excample if you flanked x2 maxims with damaged squad, its a huge change to lose few ones to them.
I would rather say, that maxim should be cheapor (like 225-230MP) or have like M2 fire arch, but be 4 men crew.
Oh please, before spitting utter bullshit like this at least check some stats first.
SINGLE grenadier model does same DPS as 5 crew men. When that gren attacks support weapon, it does even more.
If you're losing squads to that, then perhaps you shouldn't flank with squads that have 20 HP left in total.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Feb 2016, 10:11 AM
#5
Posts: 794
@CK;
Good points, a 4man Maxim/Zis would be quite underperfoming with their current stats. So I am all for buffs to their stats, mobility etc but have their size reduced.
Good points, a 4man Maxim/Zis would be quite underperfoming with their current stats. So I am all for buffs to their stats, mobility etc but have their size reduced.
11 Feb 2016, 10:14 AM
#6
Posts: 295 | Subs: 1
Oh please, before spitting utter bullshit like this at least check some stats first.
SINGLE grenadier model does same DPS then 5 crew men.
If you're losing squads to that, then perhaps you shouldn't flank with squads that have 20 HP left in total.
Play game please, this situation is not common of course but happens quite often (especially with Ost units). Sometimes while 4-5 of weapon crew members can hit model and kill it. DPS based on accuracy mostly because weapon crews use same mosin as conscripts.
OR here is another idea, if you reinforce your support weapon with conscripts or pick up weapon with conscripts, your whole 6 men crew will be conscripts, with conscripts damage.
So before using your "on paper" arguments go and play game, please.
11 Feb 2016, 10:45 AM
#7
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Play game please, this situation is not common of course but happens quite often (especially with Ost units). Sometimes while 4-5 of weapon crew members can hit model and kill it. DPS based on accuracy mostly because weapon crews use same mosin as conscripts.
The "quite often" you describe has 0.0032 chance to happen when there is a single model(5 hits on same model) and 0,000005 chance for 5 hits on the same model when there are 4 models without any one being specifically at the front(like, you know, when you flank with more then single model, the chance to drop a model from weapon crews that all focused on single model with 4 models available) Also, this chance doesn't even include grens 0.91 rec acc modifier. You're more likely to get killed in your bath then to have weapon crew drop a model instantly.
OR here is another idea, if you reinforce your support weapon with conscripts or pick up weapon with conscripts, your whole 6 men crew will be conscripts, with conscripts damage.
So before using your "on paper" arguments go and play game, please.
Which goes for every single team weapon in game.
We're talking stock crews here as no one kills his team weapon first to replace it with mainline inf.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
11 Feb 2016, 17:40 PM
#8
Posts: 468
LOL,
Might as well make SOV a mirror match of OST then. Give maxim same firing arch and suppression, no wheels, same set up time and then gib it to 4 man. Oh, give it incendiary rounds as well.
The best mortar is... OST! if you're going to gimp the SOV mortar, make it identically accurate with higher RoF as OST.
ZIS walls with IS2? You should have instant wipe werfer at that point in the game.
Oh btw, 120 mm mortar is 13 pop... higher than any infantry unit. After it's nerf, unreliable damage. More useless at dislodging an MG than any normal mortar.
Personal opinion, I think Allies would trade for 6 pounder or pak40 anytime just because it can more reliably penetrate German tanks. Maybe as a German, a Zis is more preferential because most allied tanks can be easily penetrated.
At this rate, might as well make conscripts into Grenadiers with no side tech and unlocks as building tiers. make snipers one man with same cloak and RoF. MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME! PLEASE lol is what this screams to me.
Might as well make SOV a mirror match of OST then. Give maxim same firing arch and suppression, no wheels, same set up time and then gib it to 4 man. Oh, give it incendiary rounds as well.
The best mortar is... OST! if you're going to gimp the SOV mortar, make it identically accurate with higher RoF as OST.
ZIS walls with IS2? You should have instant wipe werfer at that point in the game.
Oh btw, 120 mm mortar is 13 pop... higher than any infantry unit. After it's nerf, unreliable damage. More useless at dislodging an MG than any normal mortar.
Personal opinion, I think Allies would trade for 6 pounder or pak40 anytime just because it can more reliably penetrate German tanks. Maybe as a German, a Zis is more preferential because most allied tanks can be easily penetrated.
At this rate, might as well make conscripts into Grenadiers with no side tech and unlocks as building tiers. make snipers one man with same cloak and RoF. MAKE EVERYTHING THE SAME! PLEASE lol is what this screams to me.
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11 Feb 2016, 18:09 PM
#9
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Different factions are different. Soviets have more models per squad but they also do less damage per squad entity.
11 Feb 2016, 19:22 PM
#10
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
People might be getting different results when weapon crews are manned by other squads.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
11 Feb 2016, 19:28 PM
#11
Posts: 301
Different factions are different. Soviets have more models per squad but they also do less damage per squad entity.
Soviets do less damage in overall.
11 Feb 2016, 19:32 PM
#12
Posts: 1122
I advise you to play first Warcraft, where you can find copy pasted units and factions stat-wise. It would also help you realize why such concept died more than 20 years ago.
11 Feb 2016, 20:20 PM
#13
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I advise you to play first Warcraft, where you can find copy pasted units and factions stat-wise. It would also help you realize why such concept died more than 20 years ago.
Meanwhile Age of empires 2 HD (and i'm sure there's more people playing the pirate version) has a bigger playerbase than CoH by steam stats
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
11 Feb 2016, 20:32 PM
#14
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
Meanwhile Age of empires 2 HD (and i'm sure there's more people playing the pirate version) has a bigger playerbase than CoH by steam stats
HOW DO YOU TURN THIS ON
11 Feb 2016, 21:11 PM
#15
Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1
Meanwhile Age of empires 2 HD (and i'm sure there's more people playing the pirate version) has a bigger playerbase than CoH by steam stats
Hey now AoE2's got stuff like "X's Y units do more damage against Z units" and "X cannot upgrade Y".
11 Feb 2016, 21:15 PM
#16
8 Posts: 2470
this sounds like an "i play axis and have troubles dealing with soviets" thread rather than something constructive.
11 Feb 2016, 21:38 PM
#17
Posts: 794
6 man units makes sense for their inf, as they have a high received accuracy when compared to other factions, are inaccurate and average generally.
Their support tier is pretty strong however, they should either receive %50 more damage or have their crew size reduced.
It has nothing to do with mirror matching. All factions have 4men crew.
@NA; No. That's far from it. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.
Their support tier is pretty strong however, they should either receive %50 more damage or have their crew size reduced.
It has nothing to do with mirror matching. All factions have 4men crew.
@NA; No. That's far from it. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.
11 Feb 2016, 22:22 PM
#18
Posts: 468
6 man units makes sense for their inf, as they have a high received accuracy when compared to other factions, are inaccurate and average generally.
Their support tier is pretty strong however, they should either receive %50 more damage or have their crew size reduced.
It has nothing to do with mirror matching. All factions have 4men crew.
@NA; No. That's far from it. I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion.
lol, i'm pulling out Donnie's card:
Playercard please.
If you want them to have a 4-man crew, then they should PERFORM identically to OST counterparts. Make the mortar same RoF. Make the MG same cone vision. It's not "fair" for you to demand it to have the same crew while having weaker performance. Same set up time. Same arc of fire. Same vet abilities and I'll agree to your nerf. It's not going to happen.
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11 Feb 2016, 22:26 PM
#19
Posts: 794
Stop raging man, that's not constructive.
11 Feb 2016, 22:38 PM
#20
Posts: 1248
Play game please, this situation is not common of course but happens quite often (especially with Ost units). Sometimes while 4-5 of weapon crew members can hit model and kill it. DPS based on accuracy mostly because weapon crews use same mosin as conscripts.
OR here is another idea, if you reinforce your support weapon with conscripts or pick up weapon with conscripts, your whole 6 men crew will be conscripts, with conscripts damage.
So before using your "on paper" arguments go and play game, please.
Actually Katitof knows this whole game. Kappa
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