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russian armor

Being able to call-in a KT while not all your HQ are fielded

9 Feb 2016, 16:23 PM
#21
avatar of Kozokus

Posts: 301

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 16:06 PMEsxile


FRP- Why should I believe you when video/live game/replay/my games vs OKW show me the opposite?
Volks- RM shock troops? show us how you do, as far as I know RM lose vs anything considered as shock troop in a close quarter combat. They are versatile like volks but still I don't know where you want to go with this comparison, are you or not denying volks being good versatile mainline unit? If yes explain, and telling me "because RM are versatile isn't really an answer, both are. No then you agree with me and same here I don't understand your comparison with RMs. Kubel after 5 minutes? You already capped half of the map before 5 minutes, more than enough to pay the kubel, past 5 minutes every minute is an extra bonus for you.
Why are you trying to suggest that I'm always losing vs KT and try to patronize me? Don't you have more intelligent comments to propose? Do I ask your skill level to respond to me?

As I said before, you can build your HQs in your base sector and they'll be safe as any other faction ones. you decide to not, its a strategic decision I agree on but I disagree that this decision giving you a good advantage on the battlefield early and midgame let you go as if nothing happened if you lose your HQ when the KT is about to come.

I do not overestimate the KT, the KT is the best stock unit in-game or you can prove I'm wrong, in term of generalist tank (AI-AT), it is only behind the Tiger Ace which is doctrinal and somewhat equal to the IS-2 (doctrinal as well) depending how you want to read their stats. So no, I do not overestimate it, I put it at his place, neither higher nor below.


Sorry if you fell suggested to be patronized or diminished, was not the case :(

Let's reconsider all the argumentation from the begining.
From what you wrote i had the feeling that being able to build a KT in any normal game is a problem (which is what led me to understand that you have a problem dealing with a KT)

From my point of view, you are already suffering enough of the loss a truck ( whole tier unit denying) to be punished even more with beeing denied your T5 unit.
Plus dealing with a KT is not a problem from my POV, given you have not been outplayed, you have the right tools to do it in any game. And i feel this is not a out of jail card at all. More like an end game unit, after all he just paid 700 MP +310 fuel to get one. Count what you have with that.

Kozo.
9 Feb 2016, 16:28 PM
#22
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:34 PMEsxile


Why should all faction not being given a second chance with a stock super heavy stock call-in? Unique flavor? Asymmetrical balance feature?


Seeing as how OKW doesn't get any doctrines with heavy call-ins (unless you count Strumtiger in a pretty bad commander) then pretty much yes. IS-2, Tiger, and Pershing are all in strong meta commanders and don't require tech. Brits get Hammer/Anvil specialization. Yes you can argue they are doctrinal but they have a significant cost advantage with no Tech costs aside from Brits. Many (dare I even say most) players will play/stall for these heavy call-ins as a "second chance" of sorts - its not that much different. KT is just OKW's version of that. Requiring all 4 buildings will just lead to either A) Making KT more difficult to build except as a coup de grace B) Restricting OKW gameplay by encouraging players to build trucks only in base which goes against OKW's design.
9 Feb 2016, 16:32 PM
#23
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



Sorry if you fell suggested to be patronized or diminished, was not the case :(

Let's reconsider all the argumentation from the begining.
From what you wrote i had the feeling that being able to build a KT in any normal game is a problem (which is what led me to understand that you have a problem dealing with a KT)

From my point of view, you are already suffering enough of the loss a truck ( whole tier unit denying) to be punished even more with beeing denied your T5 unit.
Plus dealing with a KT is not a problem from my POV, given you have not been outplayed, you have the right tools to do it in any game. And i feel this is not a out of jail card at all. More like an end game unit, after all he just paid 700 MP +310 fuel to get one. Count what you have with that.

Kozo.


No problem.

Usually if you're not suffering any squad wipe or lose your panther/Pz4 you do not need anymore your HQ to build any units, So the punishment isn't that strong in term of building units power. Abilities are probably the worst problem, losing heal/FRP, free repair station or flakgun.

But considere that instead of losing one of his HQ, he could have build more Pz4/Panther to defend them. So delaying the KT. If you've been pushed to the point to lose one of your HQ, this means you didn't responded correctly to your opponent strategy, so why still could you be able to field the best stock unit in game and have a second chance to wipe your opponent remaining forces.
9 Feb 2016, 17:10 PM
#24
avatar of William Christensen

Posts: 401

Put the King Tiger into the Elite Armour Doctrine! Done! Problem solved! Now, OKW I kinda like his ally, Ostheer (except the Shreck blobs though but it's not relevant in this topic so...)
9 Feb 2016, 17:14 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Seeing as how OKW doesn't get any doctrines with heavy call-ins (unless you count Strumtiger in a pretty bad commander) then pretty much yes.

I'm waiting for your excuse for USF then.
And I dare you to say pershing. There is more then cost alone to make a heavy.


Yes you can argue they are doctrinal but they have a significant cost advantage with no Tech costs aside from Brits. Many (dare I even say most) players will play/stall for these heavy call-ins as a "second chance" of sorts - its not that much different.

Let me in you on a lil secret:
No one stalls for heavies, because it doesn't work with limit of 1, if you forego tech, you're weakening yourself on purpose. Only exception here is Ost mechanized assault, but you're still having mid game armored support you'd be dead without.

You're talking pre limitation meta, which is long dead. Jesulin stalling for call-ins in recent ESL have proven the death of that playstyle with his defeats.

KT is just OKW's version of that. Requiring all 4 buildings will just lead to either A) Making KT more difficult to build except as a coup de grace B) Restricting OKW gameplay by encouraging players to build trucks only in base which goes against OKW's design.


OKW design of building forward trucks died back in WFA alpha.
To put them outside of your base is risk vs reward choice, with mostly rewards, but its an option, not intended design any longer-play aggressive or play safe, there is no bigger depth then that anymore.

Forcing you to make a choice is NOT restricting you from anything, its simply forcing you to make a choice and plan forward, just like UKF does with bofors or AEC and hammer or anvil.
9 Feb 2016, 18:47 PM
#26
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Just got back from a 2v2. I was behind on fuel, but saw my opponent leave his panzer schwerer undefended. I destroyed it and felt happy thinking I delayed his armor and got back into the game. A few minutes later a KT rolls onto the field and strolls through my forces. I am quickly reminded why a hate OKW so much.

It's absolutely ridiculous. The current system means there is no risk when losing the panzer schwerer because the player still has access to their best armor.
9 Feb 2016, 18:55 PM
#27
avatar of Pablonano

Posts: 297

When talking about mech and flak hq its ok, it may mean a lose of potential of the flak, but its not that bad, the problem resides with the medical hq, its the only way that okw has to reinforce any units on the front, and from my point of view thats a big problem if you are forced to build it on your base if you want to play normaly
9 Feb 2016, 18:57 PM
#28
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

didn't really read any of the thread but i think it's bullshit that they only have to build each structure once to make a VI B.
9 Feb 2016, 18:59 PM
#29
avatar of MoerserKarL
Donator 22

Posts: 1108



It's absolutely ridiculous. The current system means there is no risk when losing the panzer schwerer because the player still has access to their best armor.


120 fuel lost is no risk? ;)

put the KT into the Elite Armour Doctrine limited to one with 13 CP and put the Sturmtiger back as a stock unit. It is a troll unit anyway :D
9 Feb 2016, 20:27 PM
#30
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1




Let me in you on a lil secret:
No one stalls for heavies, because it doesn't work with limit of 1, if you forego tech, you're weakening yourself on purpose. Only exception here is Ost mechanized assault, but you're still having mid game armored support you'd be dead without.

You're talking pre limitation meta, which is long dead. Jesulin stalling for call-ins in recent ESL have proven the death of that playstyle with his defeats.



If that's the case then what is the purpose of this thread? OP's main point as I read it is that stalling for a KT was viable and needed an additional counter. Though to clarify, I didn't mean "stalling" in the traditional "call-in meta" sense of it being your first tank but for example, Soviet T3 into IS 2. It's virtually the same situation as OKW saving up for a KT while being roughly the same cost or cheaper.

No matter how you slice it any Allied faction can get 2 TDs or 2-3 Tanks with some change leftover for the cost of a KT and have the benefit of having them on the field sooner. Unless there is an argument that KT is still coming too soon or that Allies don't have sufficient tools to counter it then I don't see how artificially increasing KT's cost by forcing OKW players to rebuild trucks is a good idea except out of some perceived notion of "fairness" or wanting to mirror the factions for symmetry sake.
9 Feb 2016, 20:37 PM
#31
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

there is no additional cost if you don't lose your HQs.
9 Feb 2016, 21:29 PM
#32
avatar of Gumboot

Posts: 199



Seeing as how OKW doesn't get any doctrines with heavy call-ins (unless you count Strumtiger in a pretty bad commander) then pretty much yes. IS-2, Tiger, and Pershing are all in strong meta commanders and don't require tech. Brits get Hammer/Anvil specialization. Yes you can argue they are doctrinal but they have a significant cost advantage with no Tech costs aside from Brits. Many (dare I even say most) players will play/stall for these heavy call-ins as a "second chance" of sorts - its not that much different. KT is just OKW's version of that. Requiring all 4 buildings will just lead to either A) Making KT more difficult to build except as a coup de grace B) Restricting OKW gameplay by encouraging players to build trucks only in base which goes against OKW's design.


Jagdtiger is a heavy call in. Last 4v4 I used it in got 49k damage from a single JT. Pretty sure that is about as heavy a tank as you could want.
9 Feb 2016, 23:16 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



If that's the case then what is the purpose of this thread?

The usual, OKW is a special snowflake for the very reason of having super heavy as stock unit while conviniently having best AT infantry as their most numerous infantry that can be supplemented by elite inf of your choice or obers.

USF for example must go for calliopes or they are stomped, if they go for callis on the other hand, they stomp OKW.
10 Feb 2016, 07:05 AM
#34
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470



If that's the case then what is the purpose of this thread? OP's main point as I read it is that stalling for a KT was viable and needed an additional counter. Though to clarify, I didn't mean "stalling" in the traditional "call-in meta" sense of it being your first tank but for example, Soviet T3 into IS 2. It's virtually the same situation as OKW saving up for a KT while being roughly the same cost or cheaper.

No matter how you slice it any Allied faction can get 2 TDs or 2-3 Tanks with some change leftover for the cost of a KT and have the benefit of having them on the field sooner. Unless there is an argument that KT is still coming too soon or that Allies don't have sufficient tools to counter it then I don't see how artificially increasing KT's cost by forcing OKW players to rebuild trucks is a good idea except out of some perceived notion of "fairness" or wanting to mirror the factions for symmetry sake.


OKW doesn't stall for heavies, it's just where the end up any game they do decently and there isn't any way to prevent it, even when they build their base half way across the map and you go to the effort of destroying a building.
10 Feb 2016, 07:37 AM
#35
avatar of MarkedRaptor

Posts: 320


No matter how you slice it any Allied faction can get 2 TDs or 2-3 Tanks with some change leftover for the cost of a KT and have the benefit of having them on the field sooner. Unless there is an argument that KT is still coming too soon or that Allies don't have sufficient tools to counter it then I don't see how artificially increasing KT's cost by forcing OKW players to rebuild trucks is a good idea except out of some perceived notion of "fairness" or wanting to mirror the factions for symmetry sake.


You seem to think that 2 TD's or 3 tanks counter a KT. Which the answer is "somewhat". The difference is the KT is a wipe machine and will inflict heavy damage. If you get the KT to lower then half he can just retreat it to repair. You can't pursue because there are shreks that could instantly gib your tanks.

USF is a good example of this. Jacksons can only deter, not ever kill a properly micro'd KT. All the while he's wiping squads and your Jacksons collect dust after the engagement.

I created a thread a while back requesting that all buildings have to be up to call in a KT. So I support this thread. Hell reduce the cost of the KT in response, punish players who don't deal with the buildings and punish players who lose the buildings.
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