Being able to call-in a KT while not all your HQ are fielded

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 12:16 PMEsxile

There is many thing I find dumb playing against OKW and watching games around its matchup. But the one over the top is the faculty OKW has to field a KingTiger even if you destroy one of their HQ. There is something called strategy and tactical play being milestones of this game and this feature is clearly going against them.

In a 1vs1 perspective, OKW has a huge advantage with the capability to field after couple of minutes a FRP healing troops where the player wants. I could mention the dump idea of letting the FRP and healing abilities work same if you capture the territory where it sit but I'll leave this unrewarding tactical mechanism going also against those gameplay milestones away. The advantage of a FRP in 1v1 perspective is higly debatable, read undesired.

Many time OKW sit in a good early advantage vs USF/Sov and Brit faction, it is the way the faction is designed, best starting unit associated with best capping unit and supported by best versatile mainline infantry. Some people here would mock someone who mainly play USF complaining about the versatility of the mainline infantery of OKW. To be honest, if you watch the game as a whole, youll easily notice that every mainline infantery has the same purpose and versatiity.
This early advantage lead OKW to easily build-up those 3 HQ required to unlock the KT. the only stop left from there is the time to get the fuel required to call it in the battlefield.
So every time you play vs OKW, you are on a timer until the best stock unit ingame hits the field. And there is nothing you can do about it. One could argue that this is the case for every single heavy in the game. Other factions doesn't even need to tech at all to get one (xcept britz).
-You can't really deny OKW the capability to build HQ, you can only destroy it when its completed
-Destroying one HQ doesn't change anything, KT will be available when OKW player will have the fuel. Most of the time; destroying a HQ bury the OKW player 12meter deep, iIt is a critical issue.

Unless you completely repeal the OKW player in its base, he'll always have, soon or later enough to call-in it. Like anybody
Now I have watched many games featuring OKW players, I have play many as well and in most of cases, you see OKW being strong early game, losing field mid game - staying on the map because of the FRP and PanzerHQ, losing one of them or both and ding! the KT is ready, we're up for another 20 minutes where the Allied faction face 2 shots squad wipes and 3 shots your TDs warmachine. No shit Sherlock! If someone meet an OKW player and doesnt face a single significant vehicle until late game (while you just spend 400 fuel yourself) and doesn't prepare for the arrival of a KT, it is clearly a strategic missplay, (read LTP issue). While not easy to deal with, a KT is nothing to be afraid of and often meet his fate quickly against the right tools.

We could say it is fine, normal, as per design but honestly I don't think so. What I see usually is a OKW player skipping T3 units and holding ground with its T1.
And this is why the player in 90% of the cases lose his HQs, because he try to stale and wait for the KT so do not use his fuel to field midgame units (not more than 1 or 2 if you include the luchs). In fact OKW isn't bad at all mid-game, it is just that majority of the player are not using it because the OKW early game units and abilities are so strong and the KT so unavoidable that it is always better to stale for it. Eco KT is qualified as a non-strategy sometimes met in the ladder. If you can't beat a guy who doesnt spend his fuel until the 20th minute, you have to reconsider your global strategy.
Now try to do the same with any other faction. Impossible, not other faction has access to a Stock super-heavy dealing with tanks and infantry. I read that sentence many times to be sure i understoot well. I imagine you do not count regular callins from doctrine, which is debatable as they are aviable after all. YEt, the british faction is known to field two kind of heavies in the lategame. Same ressources invested in both side they 1v1 KT hands on.

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 14:18 PMEtherealDragon

You DO realize how much fuel is takes to field a KT right?

If you require all 4 building to be built then it just discourages one of the major OKW design features - the ability for aggressive truck placement if you wish. More often than not an OKW player will be telegraphing the KT (especially if they are on the ropes and you know they are prepping a last ditch push). This is especially true if you destroy the T4 building where a lot of players prefer to just build a KT after that.

If you don't prepare ahead of time with mines, AT, etc. that's generally on you. Besides a KT is pretty garbage if its not supported - if you can't thin out their support troops with a mid-game armor advantage then I think there are more reasons for losing that just the KT.

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 14:25 PMEsxile

Do you release how much resources and effort it takes to destroy a OKW HQ in 1vs1? a lot and a lot of time. Otherwise OKW faction wouldn't be viable. If you decide to play aggressively and be push back, why should you be given a 2nd try with a KT?

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:12 PMEtherealDragon

Depends on how they were placed and how well the game is going for the OKW player. A poorly placed truck is pretty easy to destroy (a lot of it depends on map and shot blockers). The more important question is why shouldn't they be given a second chance? Destroying a truck is a big blow and gives you an advantage in a game, why isn't that enough? What you are suggesting is "I want destroying forward HQs to be a game ender".

The OKW player has already invested significant MP/Fuel on all 4 SWS and buildings. That is a BIG investment. Resources are resources regardless of whether or not previous trucks were destroyed - if an OKW player can amass 600+ MP and 300+ Fuel while on the backfoot from previous HQ losses then why shouldn't they get something for those resources in the form of a KT? (Think of what that MP/Fuel buys for the Allies!) Just because an allied player can't capitalize on an early advantage doesn't mean OKW should get saddled with an additional handicap when they are already (presumably) losing.

I mean I get it... its frustrating to feel like you should have won only to have a KT turn the tide but its not like the current KT is the old one that can YOLO into a 4 AT gun wall. Its not gamebreakingly OP.

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 14:15 PMEsxile

1- FRP is an advantage in 1vs1, otherwise why 99% of the time players are building it outside of their base? You are mistaking FRP and healingbase. Indeed, most people build the healingbase outside the base, but almost none buy the expensive 300MP upgrade that allows you to get a FRP in 1v1.
2- Volks is a highly versatile mainline unit, are you denying it or not? Now, tell me which other faction can field from T0 building a versatile mainline infantry, a shock troop and a rapid light armored capping unit. Your comparison with RMs is irrelevant in this regard. I am afraid the comparaison with Riflemens is more valid than ever here a they both act as multipurpose infantery and shockunit. You are also overestimating the utility of the kubel after the 5th minute of the game.
3- KT is a call-in stock unit and have absolutely nothing to do with doctrinal call-in which require a strategical decision. I can hear that. Everything about KT is absence of strategic decision and counterplay, this is the aim of this topic. Lets say that by "counterplay" you wanted to talk about denying the opponent to get a KT. Why would the KT the only unit in the game that can be denied to get? You cannot prevent a sov to get any of is units nor a USA. If by counterplay you mean KT = Gamelost i can point some very well written guides on this forum to help you to deal with a heavy vehicle.
4- Destroying a HQ is only relevant if the KT isn't popping out couple of minutes later. i always find it relevant when someone destroy a tech building. try to loose your US base, not funny.
5- Like anybody can field a Super Heavy after building his 3 tiers? UKF are considered to be able to
6- What strategic missplay is the origin of denying KT arrival? none, there are no strategic missplay to not be able to deny the arrival of something ineluctable. Strategic missplay would be to not be able to destroy OKW HQs to delay or deny its arrival. My bad, by strategic missplay meant "not preparing for the arrival of the obvious" You cannot dictate the pace of the game every time, in that case, not adapting to the ennemy plan is the missplay and you are mistaking your role. Always remember the famous article "Who's the beatdown" So I can deny you to build panthers but I can't deny you to build a KT.Don't you see the issue here? Nope, can you develop please?
7- Eco KT is a strategy with no counterplay other than rolling over your opponent to force him to surrender. Should we also mention that OKW has per design an easy tool to occupy and deny a large portion of map and so denying 1vp/fuel named PanzerHQ making it easier to stay on the game. Nope, the counterplay to the KT is to destroy the said KT, bring ATguns, field mines, equip ATweapons, build Jacksons. You can roll on your opponent if you wish but it is the counterplay to anything
8- You can't compare a stock unit with a doctrinal one, even more when the stock one is the best in game. Stock units and doctrinal ones are in the same battlefield, they are comparable in any way possible. You are again overestimating the KT, some would argue that an IS2 is of much better value, beeing cheaper and packing roughly the same firepower and a much better speed, the same goes for a pair of comets.

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:38 PMPablonano

I guess that upon killing LT, Cpt or Major you would be fine if the tech gets locked until you call in new ones for the same prize

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:38 PMPablonano

I guess that upon killing LT, Cpt or Major you would be fine if the tech gets locked until you call in new ones for the same prize

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:48 PMKatitof

You know what happens if you destroy the tech building in the base? You can't build units from it any longer!

Jump back to quoted post9 Feb 2016, 15:48 PMKatitof

LT, cpt or major do not poop the units out. They are not tiers, they are ordinary units.

In fact, its the opposite. You know what happens if you destroy the tech building in the base? You can't build units from it any longer! Who could've seen that coming?