Buff cons/penals and nerf Maxim to end support weapon spam

In my opinion Conscripts are fine (maybe they should be a little cheaper or something) I would buff Penals to make tem viable and nerf maxim (just a little bit) That would make soviet build less predictable and create room for their "elite" infraty.

Is getting 4-6 maxims more viable than 2-3 w/ 1-2 cons + shocks? I usually do the latter but... six maxims? That sounds glorious in a 1v1.

Anyway, I enjoy using a few maxims in 1v1. It makes me feel like the British in Africa in the 1890s/1900s or von Lettow-Vorbeck in East Africa setting up Machine Guns in depth, then bringing one 'round the side to pour enfilading fire down into those savage- I mean Nazis. Then a T70/ZSU, then three SU76s and wait for IS2.

Fucking great m8. Choccy can attest to this. Do you still remember our game on Minsk, Choccy? nearly a month and a half ago I reckon. Great times.

I believe in maxims after you repleys (not Barton/Luvnest/Hans) .

Some interesting points so far.

1) I did not include a "Buff Cons, that's it" option because in my mind that would make a very strong faction even stronger.

2) I would like to see penals buffed too, but unless they get some light AT capability, I still don't see many people using them. Unless you build T1 AND T2, you will need guards for AT and I just don't see the point in getting penals if you're going guards.

3) If you voted for "I love Maxim spam", you're everything that's wrong with this game. Only joking. Well, partially joking. OK, OK. Not joking.

I think You NEo are soviet boy but now , after this you whanna nerf soviet son maximka .
Try 7 maxims .

I play Axis and Soviets equally. I just hate spammy and blobby USF so don't play them

This poll feels vomitive, i dont feel like maxim has any problem, i do not spam them either, but, the options to vote on this poll make me want to puke over it

Still wont build t0 due to the lack of solid AT options.
Buffing cons wont fix the issue but buffing penals and maybe moving zis to t0 and unlock after first tech building may work.

That being said not having to build t2 would also be an issue if you moved the AT gun.


The best option you could do is to move At nades into penals or to give them a bazooka upgrade or something.

cons scale fine at vet3 when they get that massive *0.7(?) multiplier to their evasion. getting there can be an issue though. the maxim is also in a good spot right now, the problem is that cons are 240mp infantry fighting, at best, 240mp + 60mun infantry or more expensive infantry while not being enough cheaper to effectively out spam the more expensive infantry (you actually can sort of out spam spios but both spios and cons are close range infantry so that tends to edge in spios favour).

penals are close to complete shit though and scale terribly. their dps with flamers is actually quite good early game but they have issue closing on many maps (shocks have armour and smoke), lack a grenade (satchels are NOT a grenade although they can be used similarly against idiots or by geniuses), and are expensive.

I think the maxim is doing what its suppose to be doing, a suppression platform with some nice dps and good setup time. The MG42 can suppress in a huge arc, and can load incendiary rounds to really burst people down.

Nobody wants the old Maxim that was a piece of garbage while the MG42 has always been great.

If anything you need to look at the durability of a maxim, 6 man crews I think is a bit excessive. Brits, OKW, USF and OST all have 4 man crews on their MG's so why is the maxim a 6 man? I'd drop it to 5 or even 4 and see how this is. It's the durability that gets me, 2-3 rifle nades and this thing just keeps firing away and pinning all your squads. 75 Munitions should be enough to decrew this bad boy and yet it is not.

I would like to see a buff to Penals, they are alright but they drop like flies. Even if they were mirrored conscripts w/ satchels and flamers.. or something of the like.

cons scale fine at vet3 when they get that massive *0.7(?) multiplier to their evasion.

I don't know what your definition of "fine" is but they are BY FAR the worst combat infantry unit in the late game.

Grens - excellent vet bonuses + LMG or G43 + long range grenade + snare
Rifles - excellent vet bonuses + BAR/Mwhatever + strong grenades + snare
Volks - amazing at Vet5 and strong AT + various grenades
Tommies - strong vet bonuses + LMG upgrade/light AT + strong grenades + doctrinal snare

Conscripts - snare, lame grenade, no LMG, mediocre doctrinal short range upgrade

I won't even compare them to elite infantry, 2 cons cost more manpower than 1 Fallshimjager, Obersoldaten, Ranger etc. but they would always lose to them.

Maximspam is there because it's effective, first and foremost.

But it doesn't help that, especially against OKW, Soviet non-doctrinal infantry is quite simply outclassed. Unless you're using Penals in an urban map, against a similarily skilled player you are very likely to lose the infantry war because Conscripts do shit damage and Penals aren't good and tough enough to justify their tier/pricing.

This is exacerbated by the lack of any AT option in T1, so if you go this route you either have to back-tech to T2 to get AT guns (wasting loads of MP), try to hold out with Guards/AT nades, or dominate your opponent and manage to fast-tech to T3. All three of these options are difficult to accomplish in a normal game. Again, this is particularily painful vs OKW; if you don't have any AT when the 6:30 Luchs comes out, you're screwed.

Personally, I'd buff Penal's toughness, give them an AT option, and raise their price a bit. If Maximspam is still dominant, then nerf it; maybe a bit longer pack up/pack down time for instance. But fixing its death loop would be nice.

I don't know what your definition of "fine" is but they are BY FAR the worst combat infantry unit in the late game.

Grens - excellent vet bonuses + LMG or G43 + long range grenade + snare
Rifles - excellent vet bonuses + BAR/Mwhatever + strong grenades + snare
Volks - amazing at Vet5 and strong AT + various grenades
Tommies - strong vet bonuses + LMG upgrade/light AT + strong grenades + doctrinal snare

Conscripts - snare, lame grenade, no LMG, mediocre doctrinal short range upgrade

I won't even compare them to elite infantry, 2 cons cost more manpower than 1 Fallshimjager, Obersoldaten, Ranger etc. but they would always lose to them.

Nah... Tommies have very high upkeep. it's not doctrinal snare, that's a different unit AT boys. And AT boys snare do half damage compared to every other snare in the game.... I believe 50 instead of 100.

Conscripts are decently cheap and 6 man. I believe 2 vet 3 cons with ppsh upgrade would beat any Fallschim, Obers, or Rangers (unless you stand on one of their grenades).

Rifles/Volks are gamebreaking blobs. Grens are small 4 man squads and easily wiped later in the game by arty/indirect.

Ahh, OK. My mistake, I only bought Brits today

In any case, I don't think you can possibly compare Grens to Cons in the late game, even though the price is the same.

Tommies are a poor point of comparison. They are indeed overpriced and lack for utility, and Brits are kept in the meta by cheesy units like the AEC and Cromwell. They should get a price reduction.

I think the maxim is doing what its suppose to be doing, a suppression platform with some nice dps and good setup time. The MG42 can suppress in a huge arc, and can load incendiary rounds to really burst people down.

Nobody wants the old Maxim that was a piece of garbage while the MG42 has always been great.

If anything you need to look at the durability of a maxim, 6 man crews I think is a bit excessive. Brits, OKW, USF and OST all have 4 man crews on their MG's so why is the maxim a 6 man? I'd drop it to 5 or even 4 and see how this is. It's the durability that gets me, 2-3 rifle nades and this thing just keeps firing away and pinning all your squads. 75 Munitions should be enough to decrew this bad boy and yet it is not.

Old Maxim? One of the reasons it wasn't so great was because of vet 2 grenadier rifle nade range. Rifle nade could be fired from beyond sight/maxim range, which in itself isn't necessarily bad, but the fact that models tend to stack up, it led to the vetted maxim squad being wiped instantly with a 30 muni ability.

maxim has always been able to beat MG42 1v1. Maxim wasn't terrible but it's certainly in a better spot now.

The reason why soviets have so many men in their squads is to reflect the vast amount of manpower that the soviets had throughout the war.

Perhaps you should rely less on rifle nades and more on various other tools for wiping maxims, eh?

I don't know what your definition of "fine" is but they are BY FAR the worst combat infantry unit in the late game.

Grens - excellent vet bonuses + LMG or G43 + long range grenade + snare
Rifles - excellent vet bonuses + BAR/Mwhatever + strong grenades + snare
Volks - amazing at Vet5 and strong AT + various grenades
Tommies - strong vet bonuses + LMG upgrade/light AT + strong grenades + doctrinal snare

Conscripts - snare, lame grenade, no LMG, mediocre doctrinal short range upgrade

they're also the cheapest, even factoring in the ppsh or ptrs upgrades. they are certainly the weakest, and that sucks for soviet players who use them, but i don't think they're disproportionately weak for their cost. they have two main issues, well three if you count getting to vet 3. one, as i mentioned they're generally fighting more expensive infantry but cons are not enough cheaper to really counter spam, plus there's the issue of population which certainly comes into play in team games. two, while cons are generally fighting more expensive infantry, they have no non-doc upgrades and their doctrinal upgrades are mediocre at best. this puts them at a severe disadvantage against upgraded and/or more expensive infantry. it doesn't help that they have a short ranged and, as you mentioned, shitty against everything but garrisons grenade.

i guess the summary is, i think they're ok for their cost but i think they are easily the worst of the mainline infantry due to both a lack of upgrades and a lack of power. additionally they don't have very good utility.

If any change to lessen the effectiveness of the maxim is made, indeed the death loop must go, as if will only become easier to produce.

Oh god, the death loop. Agreed, if maxims are nerfed, then the death loop must also be fixed.

OKW flame nade is a death sentence to maxims right now due to the stupid retreating.

they're also the cheapest

Conscripts are 10 MP cheaper than Volksgrenadiers. Do you really think that 10MP compared to Volks makes a difference? The reinforce cost for Volks is just 5 more and considering how you don't have to rush them into the face of the enemy every time to deal some damage, you end up reinforcing less.

Volks cost 10 MP (5 reinforce per model) more and are 5 times better.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind to see a Maxim nerf (pls lelic, you don't have to nerf EVERYTHING to uselessness. Nerfing doesn't mean reduce all stats by 99%) and cons/penals buff. I'm so sick and tired of Maxim spam.

Before OKW, conscripts had more room to operate. Ostheer and Soviets still remain a fairly interesting matchup, (kinda). The problem is WFA armies and the Brits flubbing up the design and strategy of the original factions.

Ostheer's MG42 got put into t0 because of oversight in handling USF, but this put conscripts in an even tougher position.

I don't think MG42 is the issue. You can easy beat MG42 with conscripts because they have Oorah.

Conscripts just suck vs. normal infantry, and the real problem is that the longer the game goes the more they suck.

And they cost the same as Grenadiers and almost the same as Volks. The notion that Cons are a cheap utility unit doesn't work if they cost the same as units they consistently lose to and lose to more and more in the late game.

Hell, with the t0 mg42 I push off conscripts with my pios all the time. The grens are just gravy at that point. And then come the lmg42s. And then panzergrens.

The molotovs and the doctrinal (and late @ 3CP) PPSh upgrade really doesn't do much to change how strong pios are against conscripts with early mg42 support.

I don't think conscripts were every meant to be mainline infantry. To be honest, I use them more like support. Before WFA, they were the only ones to be able to build sandbags. They basically build defenses, and reinforce support teams so they don't have to retreat, and can be upgraded to support AT guns with AT nade or dislodge support teams with molotovs.

So if you're trying to make them capable of taking on other mainline infantry, I feel that's just homogenization of all factions demanding for a strong mainline unit that can handle a lot of situations which is not the point.

PPSH upgrade makes them viable into flanking manuevers. Flank any support team and they'll melt. If they have pioneers and mg42, you should have maxim and cons. why would you expect cons to beat pio AND mg42?