New Commander: Terror Doctrine

KCH exists in COH2 since launch, aka Shock Troops.

I'd buy that for a dollar!


Regarding KCHs: I actually think they'd be fine. 90HP per model seems OK since they only have 3 men and thus could get one-shotted pretty easily.

Their received accuracy/supression at vet 0 gets balanced out by their low vet bonuses (they'd have higher rec. acc. stats than Obers at vet 3).

Their abilities don't seem that strong. Definitely not OP for a 7CP squad.

I don't know the DPS of their StGs so I can't comment on that.

Regarding the commander as a whole: Railway arty would be a hardcounter to emplacments (even with brace) ... I like that

Artillery Officer is nice, so is the Command PIV.

Overall, this commander looks decent.

I r8 7/10 because it probably wouldn't be that strong in the current meta.

Is that a 3 man squad, resistant to bullets, immune to mortars, immune to suppression, that can heal itself, designed do overpower infantery, shreck tanks, throw grenades, hooraaah, cost as much as an obersoldaten squad?
Marie-Sue Terminator squad spotted!
I am afraid you designed some kind of acetiger infantery aviable at 7CP with actually no downside.
While i like KCH, i cannot agree on superunits that can deal with anything without support. Even the humble Tiger cannot selfrepair and is not stuffed with multiple multipurpose abilitys. There is basically no point in bulding any other units past CP7 with that loadout.
What i suggest you is to do some of the followings :
-removing thoses abilities, replace them with more specialist ones, like building occupy/stungrenades/inspire warcry(creates synergy)/build special thing/debuff spell...
-adding weaknesses to a certain type of units
-adding downsides, limit to 1, mega popcap, ressources cut, autobreak if a model die, no reinforce allowed...

When comparing to other "terminator" units, the colsest things that comes to my mind are rangers, shocks, obers, and they all serves a particular purpose, have mostly one or two abilitys at max that help them to fulfill their purpose and are soft to vehicles (dont count eventual zook as it hampers their usefullness to be able to soften light vehicles).

I liked the work you puted on railway artillery thought, pretty nice!

Kozo.

Surprisingly, they aren't actually that powerful. With the argument of them being immune, that is the exact opposite. If they don't have a nearby infantry unit to assist, they'll probably get focused on fast, and die. They have the same weaknesses as normal infantry, so they still have weakness. I did test this via attribute editor, so I do know these things. I actually came to these conclusions after multiple tests on attribute editor, because they were under-powered. I think limiting this unit anymore wouldn't make it worth even buying. I still don't understand why people consider these easily wiped squads "terminators." I really do appreciate you posting your thoughts, because it helps me clear up some foggy areas in these units. Thanks for the support on the railway artillery! It's always appreciated.

KCH exists in COH2 since launch, aka Shock Troops.

The first thing that came to my mind was my bad Superbowl pun...

I don't know the DPS of their StGs so I can't comment on that.

Appreciate the response! To answer you about the DPS, the rate of fire is the same as the Panzergrenadier STG-44, but the accuracy is higher (55%, 75%, and 85%), and the damage is 7.5 instead of 5. I don't exactly remember the DPS for them or the accuracy of Panzergrenadiers, but hopefully this can help you find out. I did build the KCH off of the Panzergrenadiers because of their similarities.

Commenting to others about fanboyism when I've yet to read anything non axis from you Karb, I like the suggestion minus knights cross holders, it's just a name. Do people really just need the name? They exist in more forms than before now, strums are mini knights cross and the real deal with vet, obers are Knights cross with versatility to short or longer ranges.

Command tank + tiger is also a noteworthy mention, this smells of "make a new meta" commander really, especially relying on the 1 click to win railway arty change that is proposed previous. Would need to be in a preview mod really, the preview mods are quite excellent at preventing the mega metas of old.

Old mark target combined with the B4 and an ISU call in would fit about the same bill, but would never be implemented.

Appreciate the response! To answer you about the DPS, the rate of fire is the same as the Panzergrenadier STG-44, but the accuracy is higher (55%, 75%, and 85%), and the damage is 7.5 instead of 5. I don't exactly remember the DPS for them or the accuracy of Panzergrenadiers, but hopefully this can help you find out. I did build the KCH off of the Panzergrenadiers because of their similarities.

Alright, I looked for some kind of DPS spreadsheet and found this: spreadsheet and found this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IX68mtMEFLUVZCJpdgLxtm9cLajZATNRwISihru8rZM/edit?pref=2&pli=1

If I replace the damage and accuracy values for PGren StGs I get the following DPS values for one StG:

short // mid // far

33,7 // 16,9 // 2,5

Squad DPS would be:

101 // 50,7 // 7,5

Result:

> slithly higher DPS than 2 IR StGs (less DPS than one IR StG Ober squad) at max range
> significantly higher close range DPS than StG Obers

Looks pretty strong. Dunno if OP considering their late arrival, small squad size etc.

Commenting to others about fanboyism when I've yet to read anything non axis from you Karb

I've yet to read anything non axis from you Karb

I like the suggestion minus knights cross holders, it's just a name.

Command tank + tiger is also a noteworthy mention, this smells of "make a new meta" commander really, especially relying on the 1 click to win railway arty change that is proposed previous.

Old mark target combined with the B4 and an ISU call in would fit about the same bill, but would never be implemented.

I was responding so someone who was talking about "fanboyism"

I've supported multiple buffs to soviet units, such as the penals, M42, and the ISU-152/IS-2, I've also supported USF's .50 cal Jeeps to not cost as much fuel, and a buff to the majors artillery call in.

Last time I checked, it's a unit.

That's horribly outdated, and nobody would dare rely on a 325 munitions, 18 CP ability for a meta, especially Ostheer, because in my opinion it would be suicidal; It would be just like relying on a tiger ace to win the game for you.

I don't see this being as overpowered as you portray it. If the KCHs are the problem, they're pretty much the same thing as Obers with IR STGs, and if the railway artillery is the problem, It's well balanced enough to where it isn't an "I Win Button". If you do still believe it is an "I Win Button" please explain.

Alright, I looked for some kind of DPS spreadsheet and found this: spreadsheet and found this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IX68mtMEFLUVZCJpdgLxtm9cLajZATNRwISihru8rZM/edit?pref=2&pli=1

If I replace the damage and accuracy values for PGren StGs I get the following DPS values for one StG:

short // mid // far

33,7 // 16,9 // 2,5

Squad DPS would be:

101 // 50,7 // 7,5

Result:

> slithly higher DPS than 2 IR StGs (less DPS than one IR StG Ober squad) at max range
> significantly higher close range DPS than StG Obers

Looks pretty strong. Dunno if OP considering their late arrival, small squad size etc.

In my opinion, I'd compare them to a Jackson, because it does amazing damage, but it is easily wiped off the map. The only way to effectively use them is by giving them something to tank some of the damage, the Tiger Tank isn't here, but any tank/infantry squad should help. I could increase the reinforcement cost to 90, and then increase the overall squad cost to 420 Manpower, and then maybe that could help if it's still a notable problem, but for now, I think it would be fine, as it was after testing it.

Surprisingly, they aren't actually that powerful. With the argument of them being immune, that is the exact opposite. If they don't have a nearby infantry unit to assist, they'll probably get focused on fast, and die. They have the same weaknesses as normal infantry, so they still have weakness. I did test this via attribute editor, so I do know these things. I actually came to these conclusions after multiple tests on attribute editor, because they were under-powered. I think limiting this unit anymore wouldn't make it worth even buying. I still don't understand why people consider these easily wiped squads "terminators." Also I did mention that they are really bad without support due to them having 3 people in the squad, even with 90 health each. I really do appreciate you posting your thoughts, because it helps me clear up some foggy areas in these units. Thanks for the support on the railway artillery! It's always appreciated.

You'r welcome
I may have overracted a little bit. Apologies.
Speaking of fragility, in therms of "effective health", the way you designed them put them in the PG/Obers bracket, which are ok.
The 90HP allow them to survive to a mortarshot which i am sold on yet, and to suffer an additional shot (6) from allied "common rifle" without dying and mitigating 6 dammages (wasted for the ennemy) in the process.
Seems ok.
In terms of offensive power, they come in between Pgrenadiers/Sturmpionners (as they are 150% more effective) and infraredscoped-obers (as they are at 86% of their firepower). The fact that they are only 3 barely compensate for their incredible accuracy.
In terms of vanilla stats, it looks ok after all.

Speaking of abilities,
-The self heal ability still poses me some problems, even if you pay the iron price™ to have it (unlike tommys) as it goes agains the "combined arms" phylosophy of the game.
-Ok with da grenade!
-Orrah and break suppression poses me some problems too as they are very synergic and allow you to bypass the suppression mechanism almost unpunished. When comparing similar spell, the smoke grnade require more attention as it is a skillshot, require precise targeting, is useless against 2+ HMG, require more planning in general and is not/hardly usable while suppressed! I think i would have accepted it if it is only usable in yellow suppression.
I think i would have prefered a smoke, smokes are badass.
-I am unconfortable with the faust, as no other close combat infantry can interact with vehicles without severly hampering his firepower. would be a premiere.
-I miss some kind of warcry ability, after all they are individually selected and inspiring, maybe an aura.

In terme of overall utility, they are an elite closecombat unit that comes around T3 and they completly replace Pgrenadiers in this role.
After all they fill a blank in the OST rooster, which is somethin' to consider.
Not sure about that.

I retire my early comments and only frown upon the abilities aviable.

Good work.

Kozo.

Alright, I looked for some kind of DPS spreadsheet and found this: spreadsheet and found this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IX68mtMEFLUVZCJpdgLxtm9cLajZATNRwISihru8rZM/edit?pref=2&pli=1

If I replace the damage and accuracy values for PGren StGs I get the following DPS values for one StG:

short // mid // far

33,7 // 16,9 // 2,5

Squad DPS would be:

101 // 50,7 // 7,5

Result:

> slithly higher DPS than 2 IR StGs (less DPS than one IR StG Ober squad) at max range
> significantly higher close range DPS than StG Obers

Looks pretty strong. Dunno if OP considering their late arrival, small squad size etc.

I think the stats you used are for only one weapon,you have to multiply your numbers by 4 or 3 depending on the squad you want to analyse.

I think the stats you used are for only one weapon,you have to multiply your numbers by 4 or 3 depending on the squad you want to analyse.

But I did

Are the KCHs gonna have enough HP to survive sniper shots? I remember vcoh KCHs did. I'm not sure how balanced these units would be. Would they die from one mine like I've seen happen to pgrens? 3 seems very fragile. You can't recrew weapon teams with them either (not that you'd really want to).

Are the KCHs gonna have enough HP to survive sniper shots? I remember vcoh KCHs did. I'm not sure how balanced these units would be. Would they die from one mine like I've seen happen to pgrens? 3 seems very fragile. You can't recrew weapon teams with them either (not that you'd really want to).

I think HP doesn't matter when it comes to snipers. They don't deal any damage but kill through crits.

Speaking of abilities,
-The self heal ability still poses me some problems, even if you pay the iron price™ to have it (unlike tommys) as it goes agains the "combined arms" phylosophy of the game.
-Orrah and break suppression poses me some problems too as they are very synergic and allow you to bypass the suppression mechanism almost unpunished. When comparing similar spell, the smoke grnade require more attention as it is a skillshot, require precise targeting, is useless against 2+ HMG, require more planning in general and is not/hardly usable while suppressed! I think i would have accepted it if it is only usable in yellow suppression.
I think i would have prefered a smoke, smokes are badass.
-I am unconfortable with the faust, as no other close combat infantry can interact with vehicles without severly hampering his firepower. would be a premiere.
-I miss some kind of warcry ability, after all they are individually selected and inspiring, maybe an aura.

The self heal isn't a passive upgrade. It's the same thing as having a grenadier use their medkit ability, except it's not for healing other friendly units, but instead themselves, so it's just a single use, then you have to buy it again after the cool-down finishes. All of the abilities except 'sprint' are from their original state in coh1, and they are meant to prevent them from being wiped easily. The panzerfaust isn't meant to be an offensive ability, but more of a defensive ability to make sure that one light tank can't roll up and destroy a 400 Manpower squad. The Assault ability is kind of a second chance ability to break suppression and push, but they still can be taken out while doing this ability considering it's only a 3 man squad. A warcry ability is found on the officer, and the panzer 4 command tank, so that shouldn't be necessary on another unit.

Are the KCHs gonna have enough HP to survive sniper shots? I remember vcoh KCHs did. I'm not sure how balanced these units would be. Would they die from one mine like I've seen happen to pgrens? 3 seems very fragile. You can't recrew weapon teams with them either (not that you'd really want to).

Yea, I purposely changed their stats so that they cannot re-crew team weapons, but I did forget to post this. Thanks for reminding me.

Knight's Cross Holders:

• 3 Man Squad
  

RIP

RIP

RIP

PIR