Revitalizing the Soviets and giving more Risk v. Reward

As it stands currently, the Soviet faction has been somewhat devoid of any effort to give it some kind of flavor or new features, as is the case with the Ostheer. To help make the Soviets more interesting to use and make them a bit less dependent on doctrinal units. I propose the following: (I'm aware Relic will not be receiving this, just looking for community feedback)

Soviet units should be able to 'upgrade' after receiving a certain amount of experience. What I mean is that with this change, a Soviet player will have two options when one of their conscript squad reaches let's say Veterancy 2. If the unit is in its home base territory, the player will be given the option to transform the squad from 'Conscripts' to 'Strelki' for a certain cost. What makes this more of a risk v. reward is that after transforming into Strelki, the unit will lose all its experience, it will be a clean slate, but a better base unit. After all, I doubt that the squad would really still qualify as a 'cheap and inexperienced fighting force' after seeing so much combat. With this change, a player must decide if they want to keep the benefits of a fully veteran squad such as less received accuracy and such or start fresh with an ultimately better squad, but having to get it vet up all over again. Keep in mind that this proposal is simply for the idea of Soviet troops upgrading with veterancy, any numbers I throw out are irrelevant and can be changed.

Some possible units to be upgraded with veterancy:
Conscripts --->Strelki
At Vet 2, conscripts can upgrade in HQ territory to Strelki, better long to mid range infantrymen with a mix of Mosin and SVT rifles.

Any support weapon (Mortars, AT guns, MGs)
Support Weapon --->
Instead of turning into a different unit, at Vet 2, support weapons will be given an upgrade in HQ territory to be set back one level of veterancy in return for a mix of personal defense SMGs (PPS-42/43s or PPSh-41s to help deter infantry)

Penals --->Strelki
At Vet 2, Penals can upgrade in HQ territory to Strelki. This is more of a reward/incentive to use Penals in the early game and exchange them for Strelki once the Penals lose their usefulness. This is essentially them being returned to their standard units and operating as regular soldiers once more.

T-34-85 --->T-34-85 w/ Anti-Panzerfaust Wire Mesh
At Vet 2 (which is hard to get in a T-34-85), the tank can upgrade in the HQ territory and lose one veterancy level in return for an Anti-Panzerfaust Mesh that would basically reduce the likelihood that the tank receives an engine critical from panzerfausts or other snares.

I feel like this change will keep with the Soviet idea of having a lot of manpower and cheap units that become better (think guards status) if they can survive the hardships of combat. If incorporated well, I feel that this concept would make the Soviets more fun to play, more competitive, give more risk/reward (upgrade now, later, or never), and actually feel like it fits in with the 1944 time period of the game. Again, to avoid being overpowered or completely disrupting the balance of the game, any of the values listed above can and probably should be changed. Ideally, this is a relatively straightforward change that will only require one new unit to be added (Strelki).


- T-34-85 with Wire Mesh

Weapon teams that can defend themselves effectively and beefy tanks being resistant to disables are bad ideas. The idea of trading vet for promotions is an interesting one though.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.

Weapon teams that can defend themselves effectively and beefy tanks being resistant to disables are bad ideas. The idea of trading vet for promotions is an interesting one though.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.

That basically sums up my opinion too.

Weapon teams that can defend themselves effectively and beefy tanks being resistant to disables are bad ideas. The idea of trading vet for promotions is an interesting one though.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.

Well that's the thing, this isn't really a whole "faction redesign", it will require work, yes, but it is still feasible with a little support from Relic. And the point behind the T-34-85 is that it won't at all be impervious to panzerfausts, but it may have a -50% modifier for engine critical with the upgrade (that you paid hard munitions and MP for). And the weapon teams, they will only really be able to defend against non-vetted squads. The idea is to avoid the frustration of scenarios like when your Vet 3 ZiS starts getting decrewed by a single, non-vet Grenadier squad chasing it to your base. With SMGs, the crew could probably at least give the squad a bloody nose, if not force a retreat, but against Vet squads or quite a few squads, the crew will still be killed off easily as usual. I should also note that Veterancy isn't the only cost for upgrades, they will also cost Munitions or Manpower, amounts varying.

EDIT:
I also want to point out that these changes could help solve the issue with Penals not transitioning well into the late-game as well as allowing players to choose more of what they want from doctrines instead of what they need to fill the gaps in their tech tree. The addition of Strelki or upgraded weapon crews could make players have to rely less on choosing elite infantry and more on doctrines that can help with the anti-armor situation.

I like the idea of conscripts becoming something more... but there is loads and loads of upgrades for them already tbh!

I think we're lucky penals have guns in the game anyway as they were used as tramplers mostly... then yeah t34s while good are pretty dull and could do with some love! I like your ideas op let's see what everyone else thinks!!

I like the idea of conscripts becoming something more... but there is loads and loads of upgrades for them already tbh!

I think we're lucky penals have guns in the game anyway as they were used as tramplers mostly... then yeah t34s while good are pretty dull and could do with some love! I like your ideas op let's see what everyone else thinks!!

Perhaps it would be a good idea to transfer all the upgrades for Conscripts to Strelki as well? (Molotov, PPSh-41, RPG-43)

Perhaps it would be a good idea to transfer all the upgrades for Conscripts to Strelki as well? (Molotov, PPSh-41, RPG-43)

Yeah maybe so! Conscripts aren't that bad though to begin with! A lot more versatile than grens tbh sovs do need to get away from call ins and commander reliance

Yeah maybe so! Conscripts aren't that bad though to begin with! A lot more versatile than grens tbh sovs do need to get away from call ins and commander reliance

The problem with Conscripts and Soviet infantry in general is that sometimes you need to fight battles at range, and no infantry unit in particular that they have does that well (except maybe Guards with DPs). So Strelki will indeed fill in that gap as well as being able to take more of a beating per man compared to Conscripts. Furthermore, you could probably trust Strelki to actually survive when put in a 1 v 1 fight between Volksgrenadiers or even Panzergrenadiers perhaps.

The problem with Conscripts and Soviet infantry in general is that sometimes you need to fight battles at range, and no infantry unit in particular that they have does that well (except maybe Guards with DPs). So Strelki will indeed fill in that gap as well as being able to take more of a beating per man compared to Conscripts. Furthermore, you could probably trust Strelki to actually survive when put in a 1 v 1 fight between Volksgrenadiers or even Panzergrenadiers perhaps.

Just give the long-range role to Penals so they have a more distinctly than being better Conscripts with a lack of utility. Conscripts should serve the utility/meatshield role for the SU in the mid-late game. With that and a few slight changes to some core units, they'd be pretty self-sufficient without docs.

Also no to giving Soviet weapon teams better weapons for self-defense. They already have six man crews.

Just give the long-range role to Penals so they have a more distinctly than being better Conscripts with a lack of utility. Conscripts should serve the utility/meatshield role for the SU in the mid-late game. With that and a few slight changes to some core units, they'd be pretty self-sufficient without docs.

Also no to giving Soviet weapon teams better weapons for self-defense. They already have six man crews.

Fair enough with the weapon team defensive SMGs, but Penals already have a role that they serve well. This is the early assault role. They have satchels for clearing out buildings or OKW trucks and flamethrowers for everything else. The problem with them is that they are a wasted investment into the late game. You shift the penals into the long-range role and the Soviets lose another role for the early game. That is why if any of my suggestions should be considered, it is probably Penals and Conscripts ---> Strelki. This way, you can get your early assault unit that will transition into frontline infantry later.

Snip

Its still a huge shift in balance and a convoluted mechanic that could be more easily done by making Penals viable at long range.
A T34/85 having a 50% resistance to engine damage is a bad idea. The whole point of snares and mines that cause disables is to punish over-extension. There's no reason to be a mechanic that allows bad play. Same with weapon teams, if your ZiS is being killed by Grens, that's the punishment you get for not supporting the ZiS gun. Paying to be able to play poorly is a no-no.

There's no need for an overly complicated system when a Penal buff could do the same thing.

Its still a huge shift in balance and a convoluted mechanic that could be more easily done by making Penals viable at long range.
A T34/85 having a 50% resistance to engine damage is a bad idea. The whole point of snares and mines that cause disables is to punish over-extension. There's no reason to be a mechanic that allows bad play. Same with weapon teams, if your ZiS is being killed by Grens, that's the punishment you get for not supporting the ZiS gun. Paying to be able to play poorly is a no-no.

There's no need for an overly complicated system when a Penal buff could do the same thing.

Making Penals viable at long range would likely make them out class Conscripts by a fair margin. The only thing Conscripts would then have going for them would be either if they were given special abilities in a doctrine or the RPG-43 snare. Upgrading to Strelki would reward the player for conserving their infantry, not just giving the player starting infantry buffs. Once again with the T-34 and the weapon crews, I am not strictly proposing they get those specific upgrades, I am simply putting the idea out for Soviet units to upgrade with Veterancy.

Making Penals viable at long range would likely make them out class Conscripts by a fair margin. The only thing Conscripts would then have going for them would be either if they were given special abilities in a doctrine or the RPG-43 snare. Upgrading to Strelki would reward the player for conserving their infantry, not just giving the player starting infantry buffs. Once again with the T-34 and the weapon crews, I am not strictly proposing they get those specific upgrades, I am simply putting the idea out for Soviet units to upgrade with Veterancy.

No it wouldn't. Penals would then be more expensive to buy and reinforce so they would bleed a Soviet player and without Cons to screen, they'll get ripped apart by things like HMGs, vehicles, LMGs, etc. Penals, however, would then be a unit Soviets can go to if they have a doc with no Guards or Shock to help do the heavy lifting, just in a different way.

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance.

Yeah, they just spammers. Imagine for a moment, thet Ostroopen is main-line german infantry and grens/pz.grens available only in doc, and you main stock tank is T4 cheap Pz.III from 1942.

Penals:
Show Spoiler

Cons: Giving them a possible lmg upgrade when you reach T3 could work for buffing them, they couldn't be as strong as DPs, but would atleast do something at long range

Yeah, they just spammers. Imagine for a moment, thet Ostroopen is main-line german infantry and grens/pz.grens available only in doc, and you main stock tank is T4 cheap Pz.III from 1942.

Lol, fucking read the whole thing next time

Lol, fucking read the whole thing next time

LOL i read all. And i agree with

Overall though, Soviets aren't bad and the game is getting close to acceptable balance. The only things Soviets really need are effective penals and something with T4 to make the Soviets less doctrine reliant. A complete overhaul at this point though just isn't really an option.

Soviets is OK now, even if T-34-76 and penals is full trash and SU-85, snipers, M3, ML-20, B-4, KV-1 is very questionable.
They spammers and they have nothing to do with historical prototypes. But who cares? Your T0, T2, T3 and call in spam works quite well and you don't feel that you troops UP un every game.

Hello.

The idea is very appealing, even if what you propose feels a little bit too much. I like evolving things. It may be a new faction design, that would be interesting.
If soviets get no love currently it is mainly because they got all the love in the first place.

Kozo.

LOL i read all. And i agree with

Soviets is OK now, even if T-34-76 and penals is full trash and SU-85, snipers, M3, ML-20, B-4, KV-1 is very questionable.
They spammers and they have nothing to do with historical prototypes. But who cares? Your T0, T2, T3 and call in spam works quite well and you don't feel that you troops UP un every game.

So you saw that I liked the idea of a more diverse Soviets and somehow decided the best way to show that approval was to drop some sort of nonsense Wehr cherrypick argument that had nothing to do with what was happening.

Problem with buffing mainline inf even more is that it will become the unit everyone will build exclusively. After the giant buff to vet 3 cons. I think they are better off just getting non doc ppsh, and replace all ppsh commander abilities with conscript and penal single dp28 upgrade.