CoH2/Relic and E-Sports - My thoughts.

Hello everyone,

since a couple weeks i read the Threads here and read a lot about CoH2 and E-Sports, especially with a look at the "Go4CoH2" ESL Business.

I want give you my thoughts about CoH2 and E-Sports, because, someone may interested in thoughts which are not made by Users which playing since CoH1 and hanging in that forum since the beginning. So you get the chance to hear from someone outside.

First short sentences about my person. My english isn't good at all and i hope you all can forgive me for all the mistakes i do with this beautiful language.

More interesting, i have a Knowledge about Relic and their point of view on E-Sports. I played the Dawn of War franchise from "Reric", the first and the second one, for fun but later also money. I was allowed to visit THQ several times to speak with reric Multiplayerdesigners, Senoirdesigner and that kind of people. Mainly because i shared my hometown with THQ. And someone could hate me for that, but Dawn of War and Company of heroes are the same desing idea from relic. CoH2 is just one step ahead/forward/in the future from Dawn of War 2.

There are some things you have to know about Relic and E-Sports.
Relic notes, today E-Sport is a thing, that they want to join in. Mainly because of you, not for E-Sports at all, relic care about his customers and they really try to give you a good product. But beside the product everything else should also goood for you. So Relic really try to give you a real E-Sports Experienced, like you all want.

But in every game they made, they fail in the same things:

- P2P - Yeah, the idea relic do is right. "When the player connect to each other directly, the ping should be better" And yes, thats right. But you need an effectiv upload from 4 kb/s for one player. So 1v1 needs 8 kb/s upload. 2v2 needs 16 Kb/s.. do the math. In Fact, there are a lot of players in the world, they dont have a good internet connection and banned from the multiplayer experience from the begginning. Im happy with my 50.000 DSL 50.000 kb downstream 3.125 upstream. So in fact i have 312.5 kb/s upload. But you are in trouble if you internet is lower than 1.280 upstream. So the E-Sport playerbase is reduced. Lower internet connections will play LEague of Legends, with his own servers and in the future maybe their own "internet"/"Intranet" or Counterstrike, DoTA or starcraft. - There is no solution. Relic can't change the P2P and also they can't give everyone on the World DSL 4000.

- Ranking - Yeah, also this is an issue which relic has with every game. There is a ladder which is never be "reseted". So people idle in top 100 for years and you dont have a chance to reach that elo when you jump in later. Of course. The ingame Ranking says nothing about playerskill. But the motivation for new players drops down really fast, when they realize they can't never reach the Top 100, because the Elo from this players is to high, nvm they play better maybe. And when they cant reach the Top 100, why should they join the E-Sports events (exp. ESL) ? And if they cant reach the top 100 because the ladder is not made for E-Sports (Because unbalancing with releases of new patches or the game release itself, or i never play against people who give new player enough elo to climb up or i just the feeling, i become better, but the ladder dont show me, so i quit) - Solution : Soft reset the ladder ever 6 months or once in a year, like other E-Sports game doing it. Or Elo penalty due inactivity, like other E-Sports games. Nearly every E-Sport game has a better Ladder that relic had. (That don't include the Matchmaking, which is good for that small playerbase i think)

- No Mirrormatches allowed - Yeah. Starcraft succes is because they have iconic players, who play one faction for years. So some players have their own style which is enjoy to watch for public or casuals. - No Solution. The Game balance depends on allies and axis. Good for casuals who love History, but bad for E-Sports at all. Also you lose a bunch of Matchups.

- The uncontrollable - I enjoy the RNG a lot in CoH2, yeah, i also miss Sync-Kills from Dawn of War Franchise, but for E-Sports its horrible. Give a look at the succesfull E-Sports games. Counterstrike, DoTA, Starcraft, League of Legends.. in all that games the players have full controll about the game mechanics. They can fail or win with on his own made game mechanic fails or wins. Counterstrike aiming, your knowledge of the game can be great, but when you never hit, you will lose due the gamemechanic. Also with Starcraft, if you are more worse in macro than you enemy, you will lose, nevermind you had the better strategy. In CoH2 you dont have the full controll about the game mechanic in fact. Maybe the shot penetrates, maybe 4 times in a row not. Also the retreat thing, that we all love, make the game more uncontrollable. I like the retreat thing, but for E-Sports its bad. - No Solutions, i like it.

- outplay - In CoH2 or relic RTS at all there is no way to absolutly outplay you enemy with the game mechanics. You can aviod every greneade the enemy drops on you, you can discover every mine, before it explodes. But if you just spam Engineers, you will lose. In Company of Heroes 2 you win with strategy, not tactic. Of course, its good to avoid every nade, and when both player have a similar gamestragtegy, its a thing. but its not the primary thing. I Like it. But sucessfull E-Sport has the oppurtunity to win the whole game with the mechanics only. Also the Upkeep system and the "unkillable" base are funny comeback mechanics, and make the game more intense. But also block the opputunity to outplay due game mechanics. - No solutions, i like it too.

- enjoy to watch for public - Another thing is,i guess the most important thing for E-Sport is "There a viewers, who watch the E-Sport games, there a people who follow the scence?" Sponsors never gave me Money for playing Dawn of War, Because i played better than others. Or more spectacular, or more unique. I didn't anything from that. They gave money for "Who follow the scence? People watch him playing? People are interested in him and the game? There are enough people to reach?" World War 2 is not a setting for everyone. Starcraft, League of Legends, DoTA.. all has his own unique, kind of interesing style. This never known style is also a point to watch the games. Counterstrike is another Thing. Terrorism is interessting for everyone i guess. But World War 2? I dont think so. You are feed in school with World War 2. Also there are no fancy colours in World War 2, like in Starcraft, League of Legends, Dota... Yeah. Company of Heroes 2 is the best looking RTS out there. But also with a style, which is not made for everyone. - No Solution, Company of Fancy Pants sounds bad.

At all Company of Heroes 2 is a good game. I absolutly fall in Love with the squad based RTS Genre. But in my honest opinion, Company of Heroes 2 is not made for professional E-Sports. But i want to, and i do support Company of Heroes 2 became E-Sports at this time. I Like the game how it is.

Finished. I hope everyone can understand what i wrote. I hope i understood what i wrote. I struggled with some sentences cuz I'm not a native english speaker.

And please, dont get me wrong. I dont want to bother the good CoH2 players and want to say "You arent as good as you think" or whatever. You are good in playing Company of Heroes 2. Way better than me i guess. Im just level 87 with no stars. And i dont say the game is unbalanced for E-Sports. These are just my thoughts about Company of Heroes connected to E-Sports.

PS: I would love relic would change the Laddersystem and P2P for other people but me.

Top 50 games in terms of prize money payout

There's a lot of games on that list that aren't "proper" competitive games. Quality of gameplay isn't everything when it comes to competitive popularlity; a lot of it is developer investment. Look at a game like World of Tanks. I'd argue its gameplay is less conducive to competitive play than CoH2's is and yet its competitive scene is huge in comparison, and over $1.5 million has been paid out in tournaments. In order to be a competitive success these days you don't really need a good competitive game, you need a game that people are willing to watch, and a good way to get people to watch is to throw money at tournaments and production value and promotions.

If Relic wanted to give CoH2 a shot at being a popular competitive game, they could totally do it; people have watched far lesser games in far greater numbers in the past. Unfortunately, this ESL league isn't a commitment to the future of the competitive scene, it's a simple marketing ploy. When the developers of the game get beaten by a community event from months ago, it's pretty clear they don't really care about making the competitive scene a priority.

Not to say it would work even if they made a serious commitment, of course. The game has a lot going against it, not least of which being the fact that it's an RTS, and a WWII-themed one at that, in an age where team games are flourishing. Short-term this sort of tournament is probably the best business decision they could make, since it gives them marketing and acts as a token gesture of support to the competitive scene. But the most popular multiplayer games right now also all have thriving competitive scenes, and this sort of half-assed attempt at appeasement isn't exactly going to win over any of those players. They had a chance here to take a risk and make a serious effort to generate buzz and grow this game's audience in the long term; instead, we get a few months of shitty weekly tournaments with a shitty format and less total prize money than OCF, that might make some existing players happy but won't do a thing beyond that. It's rather disappointing.

I'm pretty sure that a game like coh2 that depicts the ww2 in quite a brutal way (rightly so) and allows you to play the Nazis doesn't really have a chance to become a popular Esport in germany. Not sure about other countries but I would assume that Germany is quite an important market.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the write-up.

I'm like you, and enjoy the game design as it is. I'm hoping that the E-Sports "unfriendly" parts of the game will be overcome by just how interesting the game is. I can watch twitch streams and casts of CoH2 and enjoy them a lot. I hope more people are like me, but maybe many people just don't know about the game and don't give it a chance because it's not in the Twitch top 5 games by viewer population.

I'm pretty sure that a game like coh2 that depicts the ww2 in quite a brutal way (rightly so) and allows you to play the Nazis doesn't really have a chance to become a popular Esport in germany. Not sure about other countries but I would assume that Germany is quite an important market.

TBH I don't think this would be the case. I feel that is more like us Germans are really graving for some WW2 stuff that is not downplayed by the media because the most stuff that handled the topic in the last 70 years was either 'see how the Germans fucked up 39-45' or 'let's teach our children to not be Nazis but in the most fluffy and cute way'. Movies like 'Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter' (Generation War) or 'Der Untergang' (The Downfall) were major successes because they showed a way more detailed view of the war (not all Germans were war criminals and even Hitler was - somehow - only a human).

Most Germans don't care if it is 'their' country being portrayed. History is as it is. The Germans fought the two most shattering wars in human history. And still I (as a German) love to play CoH even when playing as allies. The same thing with Call of Duty 2 or World at War. It's just a game.

They will try it for a while and then stop because it won't get enough of an audience. RTS is already a niche game and SC2 the king of RTS is probably not going to last more than 2 years at the rate it's losing viewers. MOBA and FPS dominate esports.

And truth be told this game is just really not well supported enough for esports. It took them 2 years to remove terrible things like deep snow from the game. The best time for them to have launched the game was at COH2's game release when there were a lot of eyes on the game. There are a host of other issues too. The last patch did some good but it came out 3 years after the game was released.

I wouldn't get too invested in COH2. It'll go away because viewership is too low. We'll leave it up to AmiPolizei to have his yearly tournament and enjoy that for a while at least.

TBH I don't think this would be the case. I feel that is more like us Germans are really graving for some WW2 stuff that is not downplayed by the media because the most stuff that handled the topic in the last 70 years was either 'see how the Germans fucked up 39-45' or 'let's teach our children to not be Nazis but in the most fluffy and cute way'. Movies like 'Unsere Mütter, Unsere Väter' (Generation War) or 'Der Untergang' (The Downfall) were major successes because they showed a way more detailed view of the war (not all Germans were war criminals and even Hitler was - somehow - only a human).

Most Germans don't care if it is 'their' country being portrayed. History is as it is. The Germans fought the two most shattering wars in human history. And still I (as a German) love to play CoH even when playing as allies. The same thing with Call of Duty 2 or World at War. It's just a game.

well that's just your opinion. And while I actually agree with it I still highly doubt that a game like CoH2 could become as big as SC2 in germany simply due to the fact that it's WW2 themed. You also need to keep in mind that according to the general public perception there's still a massive difference between games and movies. (eg swastikas being allowed in movies but not in games etc)

They will try it for a while and then stop because it won't get enough of an audience

CoH2 has a massive player base, relatively speaking http://steamcharts.com/app/231430#All

- Ranking - Yeah, also this is an issue which relic has with every game. There is a ladder which is never be "reseted". So people idle in top 100 for years and you dont have a chance to reach that elo when you jump in later.

Yes that is the main problem with this game. Some top CoH2 players don't even know the basics

Top 50 games in terms of prize money payout

There's a lot of games on that list that aren't "proper" competitive games.

That's just your opinion, man. Dismissing games that have very devoted player bases and healthy competitive scenes as not being "proper" is ludicrous.

. But World War 2? I dont think so.

You are wrong all boys love games about war.

.Good for casuals who love History,

Axis lost the war. Where is autolose endscreen?

. I like the retreat thing, but for E-Sports its bad

It is your own opinion. So I tell you, you are wrong.


There are many ways to improve the game for E sport, But the work need to be done every single day not a one day in 3-4 month. Thats it.

That's just your opinion, man. Dismissing games that have very devoted player bases and healthy competitive scenes as not being "proper" is ludicrous.

Isn't that kind of what Inverse was trying to say ?

Coh2 can be entertaining to watch. Imo, none of this matters. As long as there are some tournaments to watch and or partake in, 50 bucks to grab here and there. It keeps the playerbase happy.

It will Never be what some of you think or hope.

Game runs like hot shit. How do you expect to expand the playerbase when you only get 60 fps on expensive computers on a game from 2013?

I have an i5 6600k and a gtx 970 and I have between 13 to 30 frames in the menu, which is constantly fluctuating, and before I upgraded my cpu from i5 750, I couldn't even play at a proper framerate in coh 2 on medium/low settings while I could play EVERY SINGLE GAME I HAD at 1080p 60fps on max/high settings

Let's not forget the games has game altering content to be bought ingame that in total costs more than several copies of the game. The game's price doesn't help either.

Most if not all of the games that are "esports" will run on most machines, hearthstone even works on phones and I can play csgo with a good framerate on my i5 surface pro 3, which is pretty ass when it comes to playing videogames.

All right this is a can of worms saying this here but I'm going to go ahead and say it. Changing a games core mechanics to make it E-Sports friendly is not going to make a game and E-Sports success. In fact it hurts the player base and drives people away. The amount of threads I've seen demanding that core mechanics like infantry crushing, rng chances of missing and fun things like demo traps be removed is insane.

Those people who have the belief that E-Sports has to all operate the same. That players don't want to watch those moments are totally deluded. As a content creator I can tell you the things I get the most views for a those moments. People don't care in any way about the boring and dull play and counter play system they want awesome game changing moments. They attract views. They attract people who don't fully understand all the game mechanics but when they see that they clearly know who's winning. RNG missing critical shots makes viewers emotionally attacked cheering for the player who they go for or cursing the heavens if their player gets screwed over.

If you don't like that as a player understand that that's one of the most interesting moments in the game. That's what gets eyeballs. That's what gets viewers attention on you so that they either get involved or donate to tourneys directly or to casters who contribute to tournaments anyway.

In the end changing the game to fit some arbitrary opinion of what an E-Sports game looks like will only harm CoH 2 and ruin what is unique about it. Remember that making Battlefield play more like CoD didn't make it more popular. MAKING CoH 2 resemble Starcraft won't improve it's chances of becoming an E-Sports game.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKlnjwzT1IruAZFb0EA-5pQ

Thank you for the long post Synatrax. I agree with a lot of what you say.

- The uncontrollable - I enjoy the RNG a lot in CoH2, yeah, i also miss Sync-Kills from Dawn of War Franchise, but for E-Sports its horrible. Give a look at the succesfull E-Sports games. Counterstrike, DoTA, Starcraft, League of Legends.. in all that games the players have full controll about the game mechanics. They can fail or win with on his own made game mechanic fails or wins. Counterstrike aiming, your knowledge of the game can be great, but when you never hit, you will lose due the gamemechanic. Also with Starcraft, if you are more worse in macro than you enemy, you will lose, nevermind you had the better strategy. In CoH2 you dont have the full controll about the game mechanic in fact. Maybe the shot penetrates, maybe 4 times in a row not. Also the retreat thing, that we all love, make the game more uncontrollable. I like the retreat thing, but for E-Sports its bad. - No Solutions, i like it.

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I have heard this being said since the beginning of COH 1. RNG is what makes this game great. RNG is also in every other sport in the world. We just don't know it as RNG. We just call it luck. RNG is what made poker a huge success and spectators love it. People love knowing that on any given day a fan boy can beat a pro. But we all know that skill will overcome luck in the long run.

Without RNG this game would be fun, but boring.

All right this is a can of worms saying this here but I'm going to go ahead and say it. Changing a games core mechanics to make it E-Sports friendly is not going to make a game and E-Sports success. In fact it hurts the player base and drives people away. The amount of threads I've seen demanding that core mechanics like infantry crushing, rng chances of missing and fun things like demo traps be removed is insane.

Those people who have the belief that E-Sports has to all operate the same. That players don't want to watch those moments are totally deluded. As a content creator I can tell you the things I get the most views for a those moments. People don't care in any way about the boring and dull play and counter play system they want awesome game changing moments. They attract views. They attract people who don't fully understand all the game mechanics but when they see that they clearly know who's winning. RNG missing critical shots makes viewers emotionally attacked cheering for the player who they go for or cursing the heavens if their player gets screwed over.

If you don't like that as a player understand that that's one of the most interesting moments in the game. That's what gets eyeballs. That's what gets viewers attention on you so that they either get involved or donate to tourneys directly or to casters who contribute to tournaments anyway.

In the end changing the game to fit some arbitrary opinion of what an E-Sports game looks like will only harm CoH 2 and ruin what is unique about it. Remember that making Battlefield play more like CoD didn't make it more popular. MAKING CoH 2 resemble Starcraft won't improve it's chances of becoming an E-Sports game.

I agree with a LOT of what is in this. Drama sells. CaptainSprice's whacky strats are certainly very viewable by many and are very much loved/hated. a train of m10s speeding over the horizon to rescue a losing game is probably more exciting than watching the Axis uber-grind to victory as the game gets longer

To make a game eSports ready is more about making it non-expert accessible.

I think what is needed are tools that make it easier to cast in a way that is viewable, understandable and exciting. A casting mode that allows you to pull back farther or show the tac map in an enlargeable screen. Shade the viewable area by each respective player in a reddish or bluish tone so it is clear what the FoW looks like to each player.

(Edit:
Most gamers get the basic rock-paper-scissors of armor, infantry, MGs, mortars, arty, etc. So that part is all accessible to them. In fact it is the subtleties of "balance" that aren't and about which they don't care. And WW2 gives them a natural way to empathize with one side or the other and have a stake in who they want to win.)

But some COH2 game design makes newbie viewing a bit difficult. Every aspect of "difference" in faction design makes it more difficult for a newb to access the game. Describing different tech design (let alone diff structures) makes it hard to explain in seconds to a newb what is happening. OKW trucks? US officers? Wehr battle phases? British Hammer/Anvil? And while they gamers might get that shreks don't equal zooks, how come the Panzer IV of one faction is different than that of another?

To that end, even 3v3's and 4v4s could actually be MORE accessible, so long as you can show more of what is happening. They had always been hard to cast because with the given tools they are hard to follow, but it is easier for a newb to watch different players specialize in armor or infantry or are holding the line while others try to mass a penetration or flank. Lot of things getting blowed up good makes for good viewing (as all those popular vids on COH2 mainpage prove).

How much more popular might COH2 be if there was a casting/tourney scene for team games? Team games have the most hours played on COH2 even though no one casts them or has tourneys for them.

By the way, thanks to the OP for the post.

Your English is excellent for it being a 2nd language. But to call it "beautiful"? Of that I am not sure. Going through learning to read it with young kids makes a lot of the imprecision of our language glaringly obvious and I feel for anyone who has to learn it as a second language.

The problem with team games in RTS is the fact that they're just too difficult to watch and follow. They're fun to play, sure, but they make for crappy spectating, especially because if you're interested in team games, why wouldn't you watch one of the many popular team-based competitive games out there that were specifically designed for that sort of thing?

Team RTS games, especially 3v3/4v4, are impossible to follow from a spectating perspective because there's just too much shit happening. The unfortunate truth is RTS is a 1v1 genre in a time when people would much rather watch proper, focused team play that they can follow easily. Dota and CS are very tight, focused team games that were specifically designed for that style of play. RTS games are by their nature extremely unfocused, which makes them interesting to watch 1v1 but a complete chore to watch 4v4.

The problem with team games in RTS is the fact that they're just too difficult to watch and follow. They're fun to play, sure, but they make for crappy spectating, especially because if you're interested in team games, why wouldn't you watch one of the many popular team-based competitive games out there that were specifically designed for that sort of thing?

Team RTS games, especially 3v3/4v4, are impossible to follow from a spectating perspective because there's just too much shit happening. The unfortunate truth is RTS is a 1v1 genre in a time when people would much rather watch proper, focused team play that they can follow easily. Dota and CS are very tight, focused team games that were specifically designed for that style of play. RTS games are by their nature extremely unfocused, which makes them interesting to watch 1v1 but a complete chore to watch 4v4.

I think COH2 could be more viewable if the right tools existed. (Zooming out and shading the FoW that each team sees are just two examples I can think of.)

Actually on making casting more accessible perhaps the ability to go backwards. That ability would be hard to actually implement I know but seriously it would help so much - even if you had to reload the game the ability to start at 6 minutes and then show two engagements in a small box showing the unit you missed get destroyed would help out viewers and casters so much. I shouldn't have to load at 0 and wait till 6 or 36 minutes to be able to do that.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKlnjwzT1IruAZFb0EA-5pQ