Axis uniforms are cooler again since patch, this is the only rational explanation.
UKF on Life Support
6 Dec 2015, 22:54 PM
#41
Posts: 589
6 Dec 2015, 22:57 PM
#42
Posts: 1026
We should wait another few weeks before making final conclusions as the meta adjusts, but yeah based on what I played last night OKW is too powerful. Volks are beast mode. I can keep up quite well vs Ost in team games but OKW stronk.
Maybe volks reversion and slight tech cost increases?
Maybe volks reversion and slight tech cost increases?
6 Dec 2015, 23:08 PM
#43
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
First of all, the faction that is played most will always have the highest win rate in 3vs3+, because of the better elo the team then usually gets. The same we have seen after brits we released. OKW just got a revamp, it's just natural that all players want to try it out and even play the new commander, hence it's the most played faction right now.
HOWEVER
That doesn't mean OKW isn't too strong right now, the main issue hereby is the popcap that snowballs too strong in team games.
When armies are maxed out, OKW will have a massive advantage, due the fact they can have more units with their 100 popcap, so you will face more troops than you can field as an allie against OKW. Especially when you see how absurd some popcap is, shocks being 12 popcap, bolstered sections being 10, while Obers are 8 (just like Grens
).
It also means a massive advantage over the course of the whole game, as the lower you popcap is the higher your MP income is. You can easily afford all massive MP investments and never really have to save up for it, all other factions have to carefully think which upgrade and which units they have to buy in order to keep a good MP economy over the whole game.
This whole popcap issue deserves a hotfix. Right now it gives and massive advantage and overshines issues that might come from units cost wise & teching wise.
HOWEVER
That doesn't mean OKW isn't too strong right now, the main issue hereby is the popcap that snowballs too strong in team games.
When armies are maxed out, OKW will have a massive advantage, due the fact they can have more units with their 100 popcap, so you will face more troops than you can field as an allie against OKW. Especially when you see how absurd some popcap is, shocks being 12 popcap, bolstered sections being 10, while Obers are 8 (just like Grens
).It also means a massive advantage over the course of the whole game, as the lower you popcap is the higher your MP income is. You can easily afford all massive MP investments and never really have to save up for it, all other factions have to carefully think which upgrade and which units they have to buy in order to keep a good MP economy over the whole game.
This whole popcap issue deserves a hotfix. Right now it gives and massive advantage and overshines issues that might come from units cost wise & teching wise.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
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Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
6 Dec 2015, 23:22 PM
#44
Posts: 747 | Subs: 2
First of all, the faction that is played most will always have the highest win rate in 3vs3+, because of the better elo the team then usually gets. The same we have seen after brits we released. OKW just got a revamp, it's just natural that all players want to try it out and even play the new commander, hence it's the most played faction right now.
HOWEVER
That doesn't mean OKW isn't too strong right now, the main issue hereby is the popcap that snowballs too strong in team games.
When armies are maxed out, OKW will have a massive advantage, due the fact they can have more units with their 100 popcap, so you will face more troops than you can field as an allie against OKW. Especially when you see how absurd some popcap is, shocks being 12 popcap, bolstered sections being 10, while Obers are 8 (just like Grens
It also means a massive advantage over the course of the whole game, as the lower you popcap is the higher your MP income is. You can easily afford all massive MP investments and never really have to save up for it, all other factions have to carefully think which upgrade and which units they have to buy in order to keep a good MP economy over the whole game.
This whole popcap issue deserves a hotfix. Right now it gives and massive advantage and overshines issues that might come from units cost wise & teching wise.
So it's the Pop-cap and not the 14min Panther, followed by a double stuka or KT? ... and not the ridiculous Volks spam at the beginning of each game?
From my view, the pop cap issue is just one of many reasons and not even the biggest one about OPKW.
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6 Dec 2015, 23:30 PM
#45
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
So it's the Pop-cap and not the 14min Panther, followed by a double stuka or KT? ... and not the ridiculous Volks spam at the beginning of each game?
From my view, the pop cap issue is just one of many reasons and not even the biggest one about OPKW.
You can spam volks because they have only 5 popcap and hardly drain your manpower so you have the mp ready for the panther when it's unlocked. Panther should require 3 trucks deployed. KT can be behind CP.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
6 Dec 2015, 23:38 PM
#46
Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2
OKW redesing with 100% income was a step in right direction.
Shame that Relic forget to adjust 999 OKW features
Shame that Relic forget to adjust 999 OKW features
6 Dec 2015, 23:38 PM
#47
Posts: 836 | Subs: 5
1v1 does fit my narrative. I've played 1v1 as well, not recently, but I've beaten players like Paul, Hans, Fahu, SageOfSix, etc. Unlike yourself, you're limiting yourself to 1v1s and 2v2s. And I don't get it, if you're a 1v1 player you would know that UKF is underpowered.
UKF has the lowest winrate with 43.8%, second being USF at 52% as of yesterday after taking a huge nose dive. UKF is even worse in 1v1s thanks to last patch.
UKF has not been underpowered the past few patches, far from it. I would know that because of what OCF and my ladder rank has taught me. You're clueless.
Spoon feeding. But you still won't open up. Cuz even numbers can't serve as at least a decent argument. I'm positive you're one of the dudes convincing Brad and balance team to make all these ridiculous changes like OKW 100%. Ignoring 80% of the community to support a small number is just a one way ticket to making an unsuccessful game. Brad even mentioned it in the recent stream, apparently he can't listen to the rest of the community and only people like you. And apparently Riot Games does the same thing with "players around 150 but not top 50"... obviously alluding to Dusty and Lemon and a few others, its quite funny. If you don't get players from all playlists to contribute, then you're only pleasing a portion of th e community.
You are the definition of a person relic should ignore. Most of your ranks are hidden, you haven't played anything apart from USF and Brits this patch, yet you feel the need to go on the forums and be the loudest, mere days after a patch.
Go find a team game scrub RTS then, because all the competitive RTS games are not balanced around the shit shows that are team games. Show me where starcraft 2 listens to players that practically only play 3s and 4s, with one faction mind you.
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Devils_Brigade: man captain molo why dont you just buy and m3 drive that around instead of playing coh
6 Dec 2015, 23:39 PM
#48
Posts: 199
The main problem is a combination of the low pop cost for OKW snowballing into having no or too low CP requirements for the late game units.
The argument that Allies have plenty of counters for a KT is true... Just not at the 12-15 minute mark. The fact they can do this whilst having a similar infantry presence on the field to the less powerful conscript spam is a big issue. Brits make the choice, low infantry presence for heavy late game tanks and US need to watch MP bleed early game as it has a similar effect. OKW has the best of both worlds now with no repercussions for early game infantry swarms.
Yes this might be more obvious in team games but to ignore the majority of the player base of a game will lead to relic pulling what little time and resources they currently invest into a new project leaving the game in its current state and no one wants that.
The argument that Allies have plenty of counters for a KT is true... Just not at the 12-15 minute mark. The fact they can do this whilst having a similar infantry presence on the field to the less powerful conscript spam is a big issue. Brits make the choice, low infantry presence for heavy late game tanks and US need to watch MP bleed early game as it has a similar effect. OKW has the best of both worlds now with no repercussions for early game infantry swarms.
Yes this might be more obvious in team games but to ignore the majority of the player base of a game will lead to relic pulling what little time and resources they currently invest into a new project leaving the game in its current state and no one wants that.
6 Dec 2015, 23:41 PM
#49
Posts: 665
So it's the Pop-cap and not the 14min Panther, followed by a double stuka or KT? ... and not the ridiculous Volks spam at the beginning of each game?
From my view, the pop cap issue is just one of many reasons and not even the biggest one about OPKW.
One leads into the other. Those Panthers and stukas, plus trucks and such, require MP on top of fuel. OKW has always been a faction prone to floating MP, but now with the popcap issue and their buffed Volks it gets just silly, and over the course of a game their MP income will overshadow other faction's, especially SU and UKF, who are also more MP-dependant, resulting in the OKW player having more infantry, a bigger field presence (= more fuel) and being able to invest more manpower into teching and vehicles while the SU player is still trying his damnest to scrounge up the MP to reinforce his infantry, invest in his MP-intensive tech and build units.
Other things about OKW also need looking at (KT needs a CP cost, Panther needs some delaying mechanism, Shrecks must go from Volks if they have good rifles) but having a bigger pool of manpower than anyone else and such an absurd popcap limit definitely helps them a lot.
6 Dec 2015, 23:48 PM
#50
Posts: 1384
Changes take some time for people to adjust to. Especially extensive changes like what was done with OKW. All the tech timings being different throws people off.
So instead of freaking out about shit a handful of days after the patch, give people some time to adjust.
Lets do some math.
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
Whoa.
Fucking why?
It already requires you to spend 45+25+50+120 fuel on tech, let alone 200 fucking whatever fuel on the KT itself.
So instead of freaking out about shit a handful of days after the patch, give people some time to adjust.
their 100 popcap, so you will face more troops than you can field as an allie against OKW. Especially when you see how absurd some popcap is, shocks being 12 popcap, bolstered sections being 10, while Obers are 8 (just like Grens
Lets do some math.
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
Whoa.
Other things about OKW also need looking at (KT needs a CP cost
Fucking why?
It already requires you to spend 45+25+50+120 fuel on tech, let alone 200 fucking whatever fuel on the KT itself.
7 Dec 2015, 00:03 AM
#51
Posts: 1604 | Subs: 3
Lets do some math.
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
Whoa.
You don't say
I know the logic behind it, it's stupid. Popcap should represent unit value, Shocks are not a Sherman. 3 Obers will be far stronger than 2 Shocks. Bolstered Sections right now damage your economy too much, the one men doesn't really cut it. I wouldn't recommend anyone to bolster the squads any longer.
If you need to know stats of certain unit: http://stat.coh2.hu
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
Which faction is OP and which is UP? Check it out here
Tips for beginners and wannabe pro's
7 Dec 2015, 01:21 AM
#52
Posts: 665
Changes take some time for people to adjust to. Especially extensive changes like what was done with OKW. All the tech timings being different throws people off.
So instead of freaking out about shit a handful of days after the patch, give people some time to adjust.
Lets do some math.
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
Whoa.
Fucking why?
It already requires you to spend 45+25+50+120 fuel on tech, let alone 200 fucking whatever fuel on the KT itself.
It's barely ''new'' timings. Beyond the early game (because of their 10 starting fuel), it's just faster timings across the board with no nerfs of any kind. To say nothing of the new muni income that ensures every single Volks squad has shrecks and can chuck grenades. Doesn't require years of testing by the NASA to see that this is potentially problematic.
The maths don't reflect the reality that an Obers squad is about on par with a Shock squad yet the latter tanks your economy more, to say nothing of 5 pop Volks being stupid compared to 10! pop bolstered IS. As Acht says, popcap should better reflect unit value.
The KT is a superheavy that may cost a bundle, but even in a closer game can arrive at the 16-17 minute mark, even worse in team games. Sure, we shouldn't balance around team games and yadda yadda, but when something is that broken I feel it needs adjustments. Doesn't help that Volks are now powerful and versatile enough to somewhat hold the fort, along with the Flackstruck, to delay until the KT arrives and the asskicking begins.
7 Dec 2015, 01:27 AM
#53
Posts: 1930
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
in no way are one shocktroops/tommy anywhere equal to one ober.
7 Dec 2015, 01:28 AM
#54
Posts: 1705
Fix OKW infantry pop.
KT cp 14
Panther another small unlock.
KT cp 14
Panther another small unlock.
7 Dec 2015, 01:38 AM
#55
Posts: 1384
You don't say
More models generally correlates to damageoutput and survivability.
You could try reinforcing your squads less than full if you're looking to optimize popcap. No reason to ever give tommies more than 4 men once they get vet 3 and weapons upgrades, for example. It's a powerful upgrade earlier in the game, but in the late game you can safely trim this sort of stuff. Same deal with weapons teams, you can get away with only having ~2-3 men on them more often than not. (Especially for Soviets, reinforcing to 6 men is a scrub move)
Tying popcap to the squad itself would actually reduce economic flexibility in this regard. There'd be no benefit to not fully reinforcing the squad, which removes a layer of decision making.
In Dawn of War 2 I regularly kept certain units like Big Shootas (Think LMG grens with two LMG's instead of one) or heretic grenade launchers (had 4 grenade launchers for an 8 man squad, so I usually kept them around 6 men) in order to optimize my economy better. The same principles apply here, moreso since everyone and their mom gets significant weapon upgrades that decide the vast majority of their combat effectiveness.
The ironic side is that obers benefit the most from doing this, given that they have most of their DPS on 1-2 men and are expensive/time consuming to reinforce. Keeping them at 3 men can be a huge boon to your economy.
7 Dec 2015, 02:31 AM
#56
Posts: 1384
in no way are one shocktroops/tommy anywhere equal to one ober.
Good thing they cost less money and arrive in the game a lot sooner then.
7 Dec 2015, 03:18 AM
#57
Posts: 513
Good thing they cost less money and arrive in the game a lot sooner then.
your literally turning into alexzander and lolcake day by day, what a fucking shame.
7 Dec 2015, 03:32 AM
#58
Posts: 665
Good thing they cost less money and arrive in the game a lot sooner then.
Eh? Shocks cost more than Obers and are doctrinal. Not if you include the LGM34, but LGM34 Obers also vastly outperform Shocks at anything by knife edge's range. 12 pop for Shocks is too much, 10 pop for IS is too much, 5 pop for Volks is too little.
7 Dec 2015, 05:05 AM
#59
Posts: 1384
your literally turning into alexzander and lolcake day by day, what a fucking shame.
Sorry, but you guys are ridiculous. You're comparing the damage potential of a 400mp unit with weapon upgrades (which it largely needs to do good mid-late game damage) that also has a 12 second reinforcement timer and each model costs 50 mp to reinforce to units that arrive MUCH earlier in the game and have much cheaper and quicker reinforcement. You can use in the field reinforcement to support tommies/shocktroops, good fucking luck doing that with obers.
Likewise tommies are incredibly strong infantry. They're not an assault unit, they're a defensive one. Between self-healing, double brens and their amazing garrison/green cover performance when used properly they can damn near outperform any other infantry squad of similar cost/caliber. (Not to mention you're not thinking at all about how cheaper upkeep on tommies will affect the british economy and their late game war machine or an emplacement heavy playstyle supported by powerful support weapons and infantry that perform really well in green cover)
Eh? Shocks cost more than Obers .
390 mp < 400 mp.
2 CP is a hell of a lot sooner than an ~8-11 minute panzer command. And sorry, being doctrinal doesn't mean it should magically be better than core units.
Shock troops need to be 2 popcap per model because they have super duper armour, awesome close up damage output and great grenades. They're an excellent unit and are elite infantry. Why shouldn't they be 2 per model?
Volks are fucked because Relic went full retard and buffed their damage 20% in an army that already had three different damage dealing elite infantry options and panzer grenadier pioneers. Pop cap is irrelevant.
7 Dec 2015, 05:20 AM
#60
Posts: 344
Mmkay. The patch is f*cked up, anyone claiming anything to the contrary is on some serious drugs. Half the Europe in Ruins crew came over and played the patch, and it took us (including myself and the other EiR devs) all of 45 minutes or so to decide, unanimously, that many, many choices were just flat out unintelligent.
An unfortunate case of Lelic's balance team going "we must maintain the imbalance in order to keep our phony-bologna jobs, mentlegen!", I think.
An unfortunate case of Lelic's balance team going "we must maintain the imbalance in order to keep our phony-bologna jobs, mentlegen!", I think.
Pocketsize: "I can't wait till they add british to CoH: O; the extreme forces leveled by the new imbalances will create a black hole around the servers that destroys half of Canada."
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