I find PaKs extremely unattractive.

No, I am not talking about their looks. It's just that for 360 manpower they don't really have a good place in the game at the moment. I think they should be reduced to 240 MP in cost.
The reasoning behind that change is that I have big trouble to justify the purchase of Paks throughout the game.

Early game Paks are virtually useless, except maybe sniping Ostheer HMGs with the Soviet's Zis-26. But you can do the same with a SC while being aggressive at the same time, instead of being locked into the defensive HMG/PaK combo, so I see little reason to go that route - it also costs much more.

As soon as light vehicles hit you obviously want that Pak on the field, except that you don't. As ammo conservation is foreign to Soviet players anyway, you can just throw a couple of sticky nades or call in a Guard Rifle that does essentially the same job as the Pak while also being effective against infantry - at the same cost as the Pak. Again, you end up in a better position by not purchasing a Pak. On the other side as Ostheer the Pak is positioned a little better, since you're arguably hard pressed to find a counter against a fast T-34 or T-70 otherwise. The only viable alternative is a Shreck'd PG, the 120 ammo for that you most probably lack.

Late game is where the Pak completely falls apart, especially for the Soviets. A SU-85 costs less MP than the Pak and again does the same job but better. Since the SU-85 is the only fuel sink for the Soviets at the moment anyway, there is zero reason to purchase a Pak, except you fucked up middle game and somehow end up swimming in MP while being short on fuel (something which I have not seen happening yet - I am either short on both MP and fuel or can just churn out SU-85 like there is no tomorrow). I'd love to field some Zis-26 at this stage of the game, to support the SU-85 and especially against Ostheer infantry, but since it effectively costs more than a SU-85 I simply can't justify that. Again, the Ostheer Pak is situated a little better at this point, simply because german tanks cost much more than 360 MP, so pulling a Pak is actually a viable alternative, bridging the time to your next tank.

On the whole I find little reason to play the Zis-26 - while incredibly strong - there are simply better alternatives available throughout all stages of the game at effectively the same or even less cost.
The Ostheer Pak comes out a lot better, but then again it is so incredibly easy to decrew german Paks and they lack the punch of their Soviet counterpart against heavy armor while also being nigh useless vs. infantry.

Thoughts?

I made a thread called "Things I would rather buy than a Pak40" for this very reason.

The German one is simply useless. Way too expensive, way too easily killed. It's the CoH1 pak minus cloak and +70 manpower and where all vehicle MGs now do damage.

The Soviet one is more complicated. Because of its AI barrage capabilities and the fact that because 6man crew is harder to get rid of it's immediately in a better spot than the Pak40.

Coupled with poor accuracy (which is kind of shocking given that a completely niche unit has bad accuracy against its sole target), poor firing arc, poor damage/penetration against heavier things, and poor range, they're in a bad spot right now. I think fixing any/all of the aforementioned would go a long way towards helping.

I think fixing any/all of the aforementioned would go a long way towards helping.

Yeah, for how easy it is to get rid of these things, they need to put out a bigger punch at the current price.

The Russian Zis is very good. It does the same damage as the Pak (dmg and penetration) and has the same range. It doesn't fire as fast but it has the very useful barrage ability and a huge crew, making it very resilient, even against weapons like a mortar or a grenade that are meant to take it out.

The Pak is just a sad excuse. People only use them if they don't have another choice available. Its main problem is that its crew is just too small!
2 of the 3 crew members are very close together and even the third one often stays close by. Killing 2 of the 3 men results in a decrewed weapon. This can easily happen in one shot. I'm not even talking about a mortar, a grenade or comparable weapons. T-34s or even Su-85 (this is just an insult) are able to effectively kill it.

I think the worst about it is that it poses a huge risk. Not for the Soviets but for the Germans! When abandoned, it can easily be captured by the Russians and turned into a 6 crewmen super weapon. The Germans require a full squad (or lose the squad) whereas the Soviets can just use a damaged squad that has lost 2 men and can still keep that squad. Call that one of their perks and I'm ok with that but still, The Soviets will just reinforce/merge it to 6 crew men, making it just as resilient as the Zis but keeping its faster firing rate.



So the Pak really needs more crewmen. A crew of just 3 men for such a heavy weapon is far too small anyways.
Or think about this stupid idea: make armored cars (221 and 222) able to tow them around? This would (slightly) increase the useless armored car and allow you to grab a decrewed Pak and tow it to safety so you can recrew it for the next battle.

The Russian Zis is very good. It does the same damage as the Pak (dmg and penetration) and has the same range. It doesn't fire as fast but it has the very useful barrage ability and a huge crew, making it very resilient, even against weapons like a mortar or a grenade that are meant to take it out.

That's true, but as Russian I often find myself with an astounding lack of targets for the Zis-26. Vs. light vehicles I just play sticky nades/guards rifle and when the first PzIV/Ostwind rolls out around the 10 minute mark I can already pull a SU-85. That relegates the Zis-26 to an anti infantry barrage weapon, but why not simply get a mortar for the same price?

Coupled with poor accuracy (which is kind of shocking given that a completely niche unit has bad accuracy against its sole target)

Read this after I posted my other post. Just looked it up on coh2stats:
They have an accuracy of 2.5 - 5% depending on range! I think the only reason they hit anything at all is because "missed" shots may still hit a target. Incidentally, this seems to be the same hit% most other tanks have. However, most tanks seem to have a much smaller scatter max value!
T-34: 3.4
Pz4: 6
AT-Guns: 10

So unless there are some other hidden factors at play, I'm really starting to think that the whole concept of the AT guns is quite simply broken. If anything, they should be more accurate than tanks and even then the Pak still needs more crewmen.

It sure is a little upside-down right now. The Ostheer, who needs a strong Pak vs. early T-34 and in conjunction with PzIV vs. Su-85 has a weak Pak and the Russian, who can often skip the Pak for a better alternative has a strong Pak. The special abilities need to be swapped aswell.

German ones should recieve a light buff and be reduced to 240 or 280 mp, while soviet crew should be reduced to 4, and the zis stay the same. The zis is effective against tank and almost impossible to kill. I dont know how many times I have seen a soviet blob a zis+a t-34/su 85 and scripts to kill all your forces unless you are expecting it with a force in good position.

ZiS are pretty good and actually able to vet up, which is nice. PAK I agree is much too easy to straight up decrew, often even head-on. I mean, it does *shred* T-3 units if it catches them but it gets decrewed very quickly and is hard for Germans to recrew with the 4-man squads. Would definitely like to see the PAK reduced by a reasonable amount of MP. Currently the MP cost makes it only really ever preferable to a tank if you have literally no fuel.

I wish the ostheer infantry was a call-in and not a replacement for lost squads. Then we can use those romanian and hungarians to crew weapons...

They aren't "useless" but I think they should cost 260-300mp and bring back the cloak ability atleast while in cover. The Soviet human wave can easily decrew Paks before making armor pushes since they can easily see them and only have to kill 2 men instead of 5. That said, the Pak is really good at vet2 and at vet3 it will two shot a SU85. It isn't that hard to get vet on them either, its just hard to keep it since they get decrewed so easily.

German crew size should increase to 4, Pak its own has powerful AT ability, but just die fast

Or think about this stupid idea: make armored cars (221 and 222) able to tow them around? This would (slightly) increase the useless armored car and allow you to grab a decrewed Pak and tow it to safety so you can recrew it for the next battle.

well they did eat the horse

crap, thought you meant with crew. towing decrewed would make it a bit OP i think