USF Sherman 76mm gun upgrade?

i know this has been talked about before but i still think and champion that the M4A3 Sherman should have the option aside from having an armor upgrade to increase durability to include a 76mm gun upgrade (via MU or FU costs) to increase its offensive capability. with the way warspoils are working right now its very difficult or unpredictable to get the pershing or easy 8 commander and you may have to spend money to buy them which some people cannot afford it. so having this option available non-doctrinally in my opinion should provide a flexible response for those who dont have either of the two.
top is the 75mm variant: the default sherman for the USF medium armor

upgrade it to the 76mm gun and you get this

Greedy USF fanbois, you already got your Pershing and Calliope, but you want more.

Greedy USF fanbois, you already got your Pershing and Calliope, but you want more.

lol and axis get the best AT weapons and armor that have more bang for their buck plus they are easy to use and easy to play. not allies they can be frustrating as fuck as well provide a huge mental migraine strain with all that micro...

And how will this change anything? You don't even say how this will affect the unit itself or alter it.

The M4 Sherman currently has superior short-mid range penetration and moving accuracy compared to the more expensive Panzer IV at the cost of only a tad bit of AOE and ROF while being cheaper.

lol and axis get the best AT weapons and armor that have more bang for their buck plus they are easy to use and easy to play. not allies they can be frustrating as fuck as well provide a huge mental migraine strain with all that micro...

If you have ever played Axis before, in automatch, you would know how wrong parts of your statement are. Late game is easier for Axis than Allies sure, but as much trouble as you are having late game with Allies, it is the same for Axis players early and mid game. Considering USF have the best mainline infantry with the most utility, it really sucks having weak popgun Volks and expensive to reinforce Grens that wipe to any explosive sneeze. I have played both sides and found both have their frustrating times of the game. If you are really having that much trouble you can post replays and ask for help in the Strategies section.

As for your OP, Shermans really don't need an upgun upgrade, they got a Pen buff in the last patch and are excellent AI tanks with decent AT utility. An upgrade on them could also lead to spamming them with the upgrade over Jacksons and making them too similar to E8s.

If you have ever played Axis before, in automatch, you would know how wrong parts of your statement are. Late game is easier for Axis than Allies sure, but as much trouble as you are having late game with Allies, it is the same for Axis players early and mid game. Considering USF have the best mainline infantry with the most utility, it really sucks having weak popgun Volks and expensive to reinforce Grens that wipe to any explosive sneeze. I have played both sides and found both have their frustrating times of the game. If you are really having that much trouble you can post replays and ask for help in the Strategies section.

As for your OP, Shermans really don't need an upgun upgrade, they got a Pen buff in the last patch and are excellent AI tanks with decent AT utility. An upgrade on them could also lead to spamming them with the upgrade over Jacksons and making them too similar to E8s.

lol shermans are only good as a paper infantry support tank tho would prefer it get a 76mm gun upgrade but it pens gotta be lower than the M4A3E8 and it trades AI power for AT power that way you get a "poor man's easy 8" without having to buy an E8 or M26 commander or just roll the dice hoping one of those 2 commander will drop as warspoils.

76mm sherman is in Ardennes Assault. Though, since the ez8 is in a commander; it's redundant.

76mm sherman is in Ardennes Assault. Though, since the ez8 is in a commander; it's redundant.

easy 8 is doctrinal, the M4A3 (76) W isn't if given the option as an upgrade via MU or FU costs as standard non doc

ps. that thing only appears in the final mission of AA so you wont get to use it that much tho it wud hav been nice if u could in both MP and SP.

If I was to design the 76mm Sherman and make it balanced it would have to fall in-between the M4 and E8. This naturally would mean that it'd essentially fill the exact same position as the PIV.

I've always argued that asymmetrical balance is what keeps CoH fun and I will not stop now. The idea of USF having what essentially would be a Panzer IV is not only thematically bad but would take away the Ostheer's chief late game advantage; that is it would give the USF the ability to go toe to toe with the first medium tank that Germany can produce and eliminates the strategic decision that all USF players have to make:

"Do I go Sherman to extend my midgame lead and start wiping Infantry or do I go for a Jackson, play it safe but begin to lose the Infantry advantage?"

What makes the Rifle Company so strong (besides flame spam) is that this strategic dilemma is solved by the Easy 8. Which from a design stand point is brilliant. It makes the doctrine useful and alters play style. Which is more than I can say for most of Relics commanders which change grand F.A.

So imagine this dilemma in with the change you suggested.

"Do I go Sherman to extend my midgame lead, wipe squads and counter German armour or do I get a Jackson that can only counter armour?"

The design implications of this change are obvious, and that's why it shouldn't be an option.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKlnjwzT1IruAZFb0EA-5pQ

If I was to design the 76mm Sherman and make it balanced it would have to fall in-between the M4 and E8. This naturally would mean that it'd essentially fill the exact same position as the PIV.

I've always argued that asymmetrical balance is what keeps CoH fun and I will not stop now. The idea of USF having what essentially would be a Panzer IV is not only thematically bad but would take away the Ostheer's chief late game advantage; that is it would give the USF the ability to go toe to toe with the first medium tank that Germany can produce and eliminates the strategic decision that all USF players have to make:

"Do I go Sherman to extend my midgame lead and start wiping Infantry or do I go for a Jackson, play it safe but begin to lose the Infantry advantage?"

What makes the Rifle Company so strong (besides flame spam) is that this strategic dilemma is solved by the Easy 8. Which from a design stand point is brilliant. It makes the doctrine useful and alters play style. Which is more than I can say for most of Relics commanders which change grand F.A.

So imagine this dilemma in with the change you suggested.

"Do I go Sherman to extend my midgame lead, wipe squads and counter German armour or do I get a Jackson that can only counter armour?"

The design implications of this change are obvious, and that's why it shouldn't be an option.

I have nothing to add here. +1

I will say I'd rather see Chaffee and Hellcat before any other vehicles for USF though.

I have nothing to add here. +1

I will say I'd rather see Chaffee and Hellcat before any other vehicles for USF though.

one thing at a time i'd rather have a long barreled sherman upgrade before the M24 Chaffee light recon tank.

You need to look at it from the perspective of bigger picture and end result, Big Red 1.

End of the day, your idea is simply "better AT capability". Which you have to admit, can be solved by simply buffing the M4's main gun in terms of penetration and/or base damage.
Never mind whether it makes Easy Eight redundant, the idea you propose results in just that. So you wouldn't actually need something superficial like an unnoticeably longer gun barrel that is expressed as a 60-90 munitions upgrade (that takes up time and resources to dom and also becomes a burden to keep alive).

Question then, is whether your idea for 76mm gun upgrade is merely a matter of balance considerations ("more offensive capability"), or just a matter of getting something that just/ also looks it? Because if it simply a mater of M4 needs better pen, then you just increase their pen, you don't need to get convoluted with a whole side-tech upgrading that you'd need to do with every tank. We're not talking pintle MGs that only deal against infantry and anti-air here, we're talking a drastic change to the main medium tank of this faction to increase its base firepower.

In any case, having it as non-doctrinal also makes Easy Eight less useful of a commander option. You'd have to make E8 much more powerful (which is unreasonable) to make it a viable alternative to spamming M4s, and also means every USF player would just spam M4s than risk making Jacksons.
So what would happen is thus:
-players don't bother choosing Riflemen Company and just spam M4s
OR
-players do choose Riflemen Company, and never bother with this upgrade ever.

EDIT: While we're on that subject, what exactly is different, stat-wise, with Easy Eight compared to M4? Obviously the 76mm gun, but what else, does it move faster, higher health, less accuracy penalty when firing on the move?

There is no real need to buff sherman at all, or if you want the sherman to be better against tanks, give it an upgrade to the gun which gives more pen, lowers aoe and disables the possibility to use HE rounds, this would be the only real choice in terms of balance, we can't have a spammable non doc tank which kills both tanks and inf with ease.

There is no real need to buff sherman at all, or if you want the sherman to be better against tanks, give it an upgrade to the gun which gives more pen, lowers aoe and disables the possibility to use HE rounds, this would be the only real choice in terms of balance, we can't have a spammable non doc tank which kills both tanks and inf with ease.

my point exactly this was done similarly in CoH 1 but it was a global upgrade for all the tanks rather than an individual one

Buffing the sherman isn't going to do any good for the game or the community, if the sherman gets an upgrade to have the better gun, then everyones going to be crying to make T34/85 non doctrinal and then the balance would be fckd in sooooo many ways. Show Spoiler

The sherman, just as the t34, cromwell and PzIV are ment to be mid game tanks that serve for a while as the frontline tank and then falls to be a support unit when the heavier tanks hit the field, there is late game value of course for them but it should NOT be "an upgrade which makes it batshit op against tanks for a low cost"

lol and axis get the best AT weapons and armor that have more bang for their buck plus they are easy to use and easy to play. not allies they can be frustrating as fuck as well provide a huge mental migraine strain with all that micro...

preaachhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You need to look at it from the perspective of bigger picture and end result, Big Red 1.

End of the day, your idea is simply "better AT capability". Which you have to admit, can be solved by simply buffing the M4's main gun in terms of penetration and/or base damage.
Never mind whether it makes Easy Eight redundant, the idea you propose results in just that. So you wouldn't actually need something superficial like an unnoticeably longer gun barrel that is expressed as a 60-90 munitions upgrade (that takes up time and resources to dom and also becomes a burden to keep alive).

Question then, is whether your idea for 76mm gun upgrade is merely a matter of balance considerations ("more offensive capability"), or just a matter of getting something that just/ also looks it? Because if it simply a mater of M4 needs better pen, then you just increase their pen, you don't need to get convoluted with a whole side-tech upgrading that you'd need to do with every tank. We're not talking pintle MGs that only deal against infantry and anti-air here, we're talking a drastic change to the main medium tank of this faction to increase its base firepower.

In any case, having it as non-doctrinal also makes Easy Eight less useful of a commander option. You'd have to make E8 much more powerful (which is unreasonable) to make it a viable alternative to spamming M4s, and also means every USF player would just spam M4s than risk making Jacksons.
So what would happen is thus:
-players don't bother choosing Riflemen Company and just spam M4s
OR
-players do choose Riflemen Company, and never bother with this upgrade ever.

EDIT: While we're on that subject, what exactly is different, stat-wise, with Easy Eight compared to M4? Obviously the 76mm gun, but what else, does it move faster, higher health, less accuracy penalty when firing on the move?

why do usf at ap rounds deflect of front

something has to be done after this axis patch because a sherman buff or a at gun buff cuz this usf anti armor thing just aint working

Sherman pen was buffed in UKF alpha and it felt a bit too strong IMO.