December B.P. Geman Supply drop zone

From patch notes

German Supply Drop zone plane comes in from longest path so that you can shoot down the plane now.

In my opinion, this change nerfs an already weak ability. S.D.Z requires control of the type of resources one wants for a long period of time making it very map depended and can be countered-played by attacking and stealing the resources.

Further more it requires manpower thus becomes a trading army size for teching/vehicles.

Finally it lasts too long allowing enemies plenty of time to move AA in the flight path.

Imo this change should be reverted but if it goes ahead the time for airdrops should be reduced so that it is not so easy to place AA weapons in the flight path...

It's to balance it with the Soviet fuel drop

So now take your new drop and compare it to, always flying right over enemies base, even worse if it's OKW. It takes no time at all to set up a very strong defence around the point (most commonly the fuel) and force your opponent to drop everything and come running to take the crates.

Often the drop has an extremely high success rate as you force your opponent to react immediately. The allied drop is one gets through maybe and that's your lot. Maybe if both drops came from the same direction it wouldn't matter, but one had a huge advantage over the other.

In simplistic terms, no more free fuel jerry.

I think its a reasonable decision, given the time and resources the devs have

Completely fair. On top of that the Allies have fewer AA units, and never receive free AA in the version of base defenses or simple tech upgrades. Sorry it got harder, but this is simply to bring it in line with Soviet version.

If you think this is bad try using Allied supply drop in any game above 2v2.

In simplistic terms, no more free fuel jerry.

(My name is not "jerry" mate but maybe you got confused because yours is Ivan?)

PLS try to leave personal staff out of balance debate.

Fuel Drop cost 200 (as it always did) so actually it is not "free"

The change does not bring the 2 abilities in line for a number of reasons:

1) S.D.Z requires control of a sector with resources you want to get ,to be used, A.S.D does not require control of any territory and resource land in his base.

2) S.D.Z. requires around 1 minute and 5 passes to be used, A.S.D is used in one.

3)S.D.Z is MP to fuel or MU A.S.D is MU to fuel.

In a 4vs4 game a simple FU cashes will return the same FU just over 4 min instead of 1minute and will be a become a better investment after that without taking an ability slot.

4)In S.D.Z the player has no control over enter or destination (since it has to be sector), while A.S.D the player has some control over flight path since he can control drop the point within is base sector.

...and never receive free AA in the version of base defenses...

If you think this is bad try using Allied supply drop in any game above 2v2.

Base AA where nerfed and are far worse at shooting down planes, even in 4 okw map the plane will manage to pass the base AA more times than not.

I actually have used A.S.D. more times than S.D.Z and it contributed significantly in recent 4vs4 game by me feeding UKF players with fuel while my plane was shot down only 1 out of around 5 times used.

So now take your new drop and compare it to,...
Often the drop has an extremely high success rate as you force your opponent to react immediately. ....

I have compared them, have you?

In S.D.Z. one has around 1 minute to react in ASD a few second...and even if one does not react in the 1 minute he can see the flight path the be prepared for the next one since one can not change the drop site...


If one wanted to bring the abilities in line should allow S.D.Z. some control over flight path should be done 1 pass and there should be some sort of ground counter A.S.D.

As it currently stands A.S.D. is better ability

S.D.Z already gives you more resources and before was NEVER shot down cuz it would come from the axis base. Now you have to deal with the same RNG allies have to deal with and you are mad about it then telling us we are bias?

It was a good change and allows both abilities to be fair for both teams to be shot down.


*edit* Also the planes have a shorter distance to go compared to A.S.D

Sigh... why do planes do this? Why is shooting down supply planes a mechanic?

I find it annoying when the soviet supply planes get shot out of the sky, especially when I'm fighting against OKW where base emplacements can shoot down planes (I don't mean the schwerer, I mean the actual base emplacements)... where's the skill in that?

Jerry = Axis nickname, not you sorry. History not personal.

If the change didn't bring them in line that's fine, controlling your fuel sector on most maps was way to secure. So do you recommend mirror to old Axis drop for both? Or mirror to the allied drop, which would still favour Axis especially so above 1v1.

Pleasant change honestly as mirrors always seem to be BAD, Counter play has been a huge factor in this patch hence no more free bet no more insta tanks no more fuel bonus.

So I guess the question is beyond a mirror, what is it that you would like? The allied drop sucks, don't think it's great to get a base delivery because it's not, you can't miss the big ass slow moving plane more than once, and if you do your letting the opponent do it and once it's countered that's it. Whereas you can always prepare a stronger defence of you supply zone if you were unsuccessful before.

Vs, a manpower only drop that frees up S mine placement, put an MG behind it and CP stage wise you have a PAK, all that AFTER the fact most fuel points Favour a side of a map for each belligerent, people didn't like the 1 map that had 1 universal fuel point. Plus not many people have a spare army lying around with sweepers, tanks and other support ready at seconds notice to assault a pre prepared position like that.

Huge counter play imbalance, which Reluc has addressed, fantastic.

S.D.Z already gives you more resources and before was NEVER shot down cuz it would come from the axis base. Now you have to deal with the same RNG allies have to deal with and you are mad about it then telling us we are bias?

It was a good change and allows both abilities to be fair for both teams to be shot down.


*edit* Also the planes have a shorter distance to go compared to A.S.D

First of all I do not get mad. I simply don't like personal comments in a balance section since I think they are irrelevant and I try not to support any faction. I did not say any one was biased.

S.D.Z could not be shot down yes, but on the other hand one A.S.D could not be stolen and did not need a sector to be used.

S.D.Z did not give you more resources it bought you the resources in normal price 200MP=150MU=50F

A.S.D. converts MU to Fuel and as all manipulation had a premium.

If you actually read my analysis for the difference in flight paths, number of planes and time to react you will say why the abilities are not fair to be countered either on the air or on the ground.

Jerry = Axis nickname, not you sorry. History not personal.

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So I guess the question is beyond a mirror, what is it that you would like?
...

No problem I see you had no intention of becoming personal and it was only poorly expressed.

Imo some of the following changes might be helpful:

Both abilities allow players to have some control over flight path. Starting point could be enemy base or even a far side, drop point could be anywhere in sector or base sector.

S.D.Z have the planes use different flight paths shorten the interval between planes.

A.S.D. increase the number of planes. Make plane untargetable for OKW base flaks.

One could also allow resources manipulation for S.D.Z with dropping FU in MU sector and vice versa but would had to add a premium.

S.D.Z could not be shot down yes, but on the other hand one A.S.D could not be stolen and did not need a sector to be used.

S.D.Z did not give you more resources it bought you the resources in normal price 200MP=150MU=50F

A.S.D. converts MU to Fuel and as all manipulation had a premium.

If you actually read my analysis for the difference in flight paths, number of planes and time to react you will say why the abilities are not fair to be countered either on the air or on the ground.

no one gives a fuck whether it can be stolen or not when it doesn't arrive.

resource conversion values are not 4:3:1, they're 5:2.5(or 3):1. source: someone at relic over a year ago.

the allied supply drop had a very serious issue with OKW, particularly right after WFA release, because the base defense took a lot of shots at it and the T3 flakHQ is also very good at shooting down planes. i've never seen the luftwaffe plane get shot down before giving the fuel. there's also the issue that on a lot of maps you effectively cannot steal the fuel/munitions because those points are safe. then there are maps where you effectively cannot use those abilities because the fighting happens right on top of those points. that's more of a map design issue than anything else though.

Overall the conversion rate gives the axis supply drop almost 20 more fuel than the allies one. Before this patch you were guaranteed and now you are not. Adding counter play to this is fine as the fuel points are rarely far forward and are closer to your base on majority of maps.


That being said, like the A.S.D they are all very map dependent, having and OKW gives it a 50/50 chance of being shot down as each gun as a 30-40% chance to hit and on avg there are 4-5 base defenses. You do the math, its easier to kill the A.S.D.

I think both abilities offer great counter play as allies have a longer distance to go (in their base) while Axis have a shorter distance but can also be taken if pushed to far forward.

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That being said, like the A.S.D they are all very map dependent, having and OKW gives it a 50/50 chance of being shot down as each gun as a 30-40% chance to hit and on avg there are 4-5 base defenses. You do the math, its easier to kill the A.S.D.

I think both abilities offer great counter play as allies have a longer distance to go (in their base) while Axis have a shorter distance but can also be taken if pushed to far forward.

I have tested with 4 OKW opponents and the plane passed like 70% of the times. One can actually improve his changes by choosing his drop point and in some map avoid base flaks completely...

I have also used both abilities in game and I tend to use A.S.D. more often even before the preview changes changes...

Not all games are against OKW...

Distance is rather irrelevant unless you have AA asset through out all the flight path...

In S.D.Z. players has no control over drop point it is set...The planes follow the same path so one can place his AA asset directly in that predictable path...

A.S.D come with flashing sector warning..

Further more A.S.D. can not be counter played on the ground.

When it comes to counter play the new changes make S.D.Z easier to counter play...

In the end of the day if the S.D.Z becomes even weaker people will simply built cashes...

By the way the change does not seem to implement yet since the planes come the home base direction (at least in my version of the mode)

no the new changes give it the same counter play, once your opponent builds an AA platform your done. That's allied supply drop in a nutshell. I like seeing the same counter play because as mentioned long ago, look how the discussion has finally come to the table on both ends.

No problem I see you had no intention of becoming personal and it was only poorly expressed.

Imo some of the following changes might be helpful:

Both abilities allow players to have some control over flight path. Starting point could be enemy base or even a far side, drop point could be anywhere in sector or base sector.

S.D.Z have the planes use different flight paths shorten the interval between planes.

A.S.D. increase the number of planes. Make plane untargetable for OKW base flaks.

One could also allow resources manipulation for S.D.Z with dropping FU in MU sector and vice versa but would had to add a premium.

Why are you saying that he poorly expressed himself when he called you jerry ? Did you not poorly understood him maybe ?

Why are you saying that he poorly expressed himself when he called you jerry ? Did you not poorly understood him maybe ?

Because he made it clear that he did not call me Jerry in his next post as the comment was not personal. Does that have anything to do with the debate? Pls try to stay on topic...

If he wanted to talk generally for axis the sentence should be:
"In simplistic terms, no more free fuel FOR jerry."

Build a cache instead of calling in a drop. A cache was always superior in team games since the resources are shared. And in 1v1s I don't see how you can defend the supply drops in any coherent way without some of it being taken.

Still, 200 manpower for something you can just use for a cache is not worth it.