Match the range on the 17pndr and JagTiger

You know that you dont need to do anything with jagd, right? Like just sit there under cover of 5 (or more if you have limit) raketens and support allied tanks/your own infantry.

Also you can attack emplacements AFTER brace.

Yea your right I'm wrong, buff 17 pounder and nerf JT, what was I thinking. I'm a noob, that's what I should have thought first.

Yea your right I'm wrong, buff 17 pounder and nerf JT, what was I thinking. I'm a noob, that's what I should have thought first.

The JT shouldnt out range a 17pndr. Thats just silly. The high frontal armor alone protects it from a lot of attacks. The Stun it gets, only locks down the gun rather than stopping it (like other stuns) from moving.

The only way to stop a JT is to either zook blob with RE's or for you to throw LOADS of tanks at it. Even arty doesn't do that much damage to it. Keeping its range at ~85 makes it so the ONLY WAY to counter it is to spam arty. All in all its a very good unit, adjusting its range to bring it in line with other heavy tanks (Elefant, ISU) will not cause the unit to simply totally unviable.

Yea your right I'm wrong, buff 17 pounder and nerf JT, what was I thinking. I'm a noob, that's what I should have thought first.

Or you could, you know, think level above "OKW is up on general scale, so its automatically justifies their op units" logic. Thats why majority of balance topics are pudding - people don't want balance, or strategically rich factions, they want their favorite factions to be overpowered and stomp all others with least effort full-meta builds.

This topic is not about OKW being up or JT being op, its about one exact unit. 17pounder. Which is ABSOLUTE waste in anything team-game related by sole reason it HARD countered by JT. Not by mortarHT or isgs or other indirect fire weapons, which by design should be more or less counters to emplacements. That big-ass AT gun being wrecked by super TD across map with 0 counter-play possibilities.

This makes 17p UNARGUABLY non-existent unit, and kills one of intended UKF late game options.

How it can be justified?

JT used to shoot through houses, well that got nerfed, then they had to buff it back to the game through pop cap adjustment, 'cause it was seldom used, now you want it nerfed again !?? a doctrinal specialist unit, that rarely sees action because it's so situational... Why ? So brits can turtle-up better, and Soviets and Yanks can rush it with medium even easier ? You gotta be joking ...

Or you could, you know, think level above "OKW is up on general scale, so its automatically justifies their op units" logic. Thats why majority of balance topics are pudding - people don't want balance, or strategically rich factions, they want their favorite factions to be overpowered and stomp all others with least effort full-meta builds.

This topic is not about OKW being up or JT being op, its about one exact unit. 17pounder. Which is ABSOLUTE waste in anything team-game related by sole reason it HARD countered by JT. Not by mortarHT or isgs or other indirect fire weapons, which by design should be more or less counters to emplacements. That big-ass AT gun being wrecked by super TD across map with 0 counter-play possibilities.

This makes 17p UNARGUABLY non-existent unit, and kills one of intended UKF late game options.

How it can be justified?

it cant be justified, your right im wrong. buff 17/nerf JT. they should have equal range, or JT should have less. let me go buy sim city now, so i can start getting some early practice before it hits coh2.

I remember this happend to the pak43, back when the ISU had 100 range.

except the pak43 also had 100 range as well, meaning it could fire back at the isu. The pak43's piece terrain ability also allow you to place pak43 behind houses and shield it fromm the isu in most cases.

right now the jt out-range the 17 pounder, meaning the 17 pounder can't defend itself.

it cant be justified, your right im wrong. buff 17/nerf JT. they should have equal range, or JT should have less. let me go buy sim city now, so i can start getting some early practice before it hits coh2.

I mean you can still counter it with literally everything else other than tanks. Stuaka, Leig, mortar, even the flame nades okw get are enough to make a player drop brace and allow you to kill it.

what people fail to realize, that in 2v2 you rarely see a JT, in 3v3/4v4 usually there is 1. maybe MAYBE 2. i hardly see that. with that being said, youll see well supported sim city blocks everywhere because they out range every axis unit in the game (assuming you get the buff/nerf)and unlike there being 1 or 2 JTs. there will be 4-6 17 pounders.. with everyone going JT/Elephant to try to counter that.

except the pak43 also had 100 range as well, meaning it could fire back at the isu. The pak43's piece terrain ability also allow you to place pak43 behind houses and shield it fromm the isu in most cases.

right now the jt out-range the 17 pounder, meaning the 17 pounder can't defend itself.

the pak 43 can be taken out by a strafe round, or a Katusha, or by basic artillery. and doesn't have some magical near invincible shield over it. iv seen a 17 punder with brace, and with the repair take on 2 or 3 KT rounds, a Stuka Dive bomb, and a stuka HT. and maybe a few panther hits. The damage was minimal. and it held off a full offensive because it gave time for the support units to show. now imagine 2 more behind that 1. yea lets do that..

the pak 43 can be taken out by a strafe round, or a Katusha, or by basic artillery. and doesn't have some magical near invincible shield over it. iv seen a 17 punder with brace, and with the repair take on 2 or 3 KT rounds, a Stuka Dive bomb, and a stuka HT. and maybe a few panther hits. The damage was minimal. and it held off a full offensive because it gave time for the support units to show. now imagine 2 more behind that 1. yea lets do that..

You are blowing this way out of proportion. I'm not saying "buff the 17pndr", I am simply saying reduce the jag tiger range and make a 17pndr a counter to a jag.

If you have played brits you would understand that emplacements aren't indestructible Sim City metropolis that you cant kill. Brace has a cool down...a long cool down that makes them VERY easy to kill if you know how to play against them.

I dont own Brits but is he 17pndr doctrinal like the pak 43 or stock? How easy is it to decrew compared to the pak 43?

If the 17pndr already outweighs the pak 43 in all those categories (target piercing aside) I dont see why we need a 17pndr to specifically counter a jt. There's a reason why in every game atleast one AXIS player goes ELE or JT if there is a Brit on the enemy side.

If you want the 17pndr to counter JT, I would recommend trying out Simcty 2000 Deluxe Edition instead of COH2.

ISU152, Jagd Tiger, Elephant... just DELETE all three and add more light, medium and medium/heavies to the game!

They only have a negative effect on the player experience.

I dont own Brits but is he 17pndr doctrinal like the pak 43 or stock? How easy is it to decrew compared to the pak 43?

If the 17pndr already outweighs the pak 43 in all those categories (target piercing aside) I dont see why we need a 17pndr to specifically counter a jt. There's a reason why in every game atleast one AXIS player goes ELE or JT if there is a Brit on the enemy side.

Its non doctrinal but also costs 60 fuel (half a tank) as well as like....400mp I think?? I dont remember the Mp price. I'm not saying the 17 pndr is just supposed to counter the jt but I feel like since they cant move, cost half a tank, and are really easy to kill that a Jagtiger shouldn't be able to out range them. Allies don't get an ability to nullify a Pak43 with an ISU, why would it be ok for just the Jag?

Emplacements currently get decrewed often but in the balance patch being tested they wont get decrewed. They bug out if they get re-crewed right now. The mortar pit is the most prone to this bug.

The armor on the Jag is rather high and hard to flank as OKW has so much handheld AT as well as cloaked AT guns that means the "just flank it" mentality doesn't apply. The handheld AT of the brits, the PIAT, is very bad, its damage is good but the accuracy and speed of the round is just anabolism meaning going brits and even soviets don't have a very reliable way to deal with these other than arty.


These almost Teir 5 Untis are lacking in hard counters in large team games. Allies fragile armor and low health pools means that any of these units can lead to an almost instant gg as the vet for them is rather strong, you'll you simply get out ranged and out gunned. Reducing the range on the Jag simply brings more ways to balance this units. The long range on the jag means that NOTHING besides arty or blobs with zooks/Piats can reliable counter it and that's simply not ok. Giving the jag lower range simply allows for more flexibility on the battlefield and allows allies more ways to deal with these.



*edit* update on pop cap for 17pndr - its 20

Just To be clear,
Elefant/ISU152 = 70 range
Pak43/17 pounder = 80 range
JagdTiger = 85 range

So the 17 pounder outranges the elefant by 10. The elefant can almost do nothing against 17 pounder and will be hard countered. The only issue is the JT outranges the 17 pounder by 5. Also I think the JT's 85 range is too long. So nerf it to 80 then reduce the chance of stun for compensation.

In larger team games another problem is the Churchill spam + 17 pounder are too strong at late stage of games. The 17 pounder is quite different from pak 43 which can be easily wiped out by plenty of abilities even 2 grenades. If no artillery/flame options/JT, GG for Axis. The Chuchill don't have a number limit and the same as the 17 pounder and both of them are stock units while the german counters are all in doctrines. The ele/JT has a number limit of only 1 on the field.

Well nerfing the JT/elefant heavily will make brits churchill+17pounder even stronger at late stages.

Just To be clear,
Elefant/ISU152 = 70 range
Pak43/17 pounder = 80 range
JagdTiger = 85 range

So the 17 pounder outranges the elefant by 10. The elefant can almost do nothing against 17 pounder and will be hard countered. The only issue is the JT outranges the 17 pounder by 5. Also I think the JT's 85 range is too long. So nerf it to 80 then reduce the chance of stun for compensation.

In larger team games another problem is the Churchill spam + 17 pounder are too strong at late stage of games. The 17 pounder is quite different from pak 43 which can be easily wiped out by plenty of abilities even 2 grenades. If no artillery/flame options/JT, GG for Axis. The Chuchill don't have a number limit and the same as the 17 pounder and both of them are stock units while the german counters are all in doctrines. The ele/JT has a number limit of only 1 on the field.

Well nerfing the JT/elefant heavily will make brits churchill+17pounder even stronger at late stages.

Well said, I agree, adjusting the range would sure have knock off effects. Maybe Relic can make a way that the 17 pndr round doesn't stun the jag tiger.

I think the Churchill 17pndr discussion is for a different balance thread but there is no doubt that they are strong.

I played a lot of 4v4 games, and I can tell this, Axis always need at least 1 player to choose ele/JT doctrine because of the Churchill/AVRE/Crocodile spam. With the support of these 1400 HP tanks any german infantry including mortars which has the same range as 17 pounder can't even get close to the 17 pounder, it means if you don't have a 105 LeFH/JT you can hardly counter the 17 pounder supported by churchill/AVRE/Crocodile.

And the most important thing is, the 17 pounder is a stock unit while the 105/JT is a doctrinal one.

I played a lot of 4v4 games, and I can tell this, Axis always need at least 1 player to choose ele/JT doctrine because of the Churchill/AVRE/Crocodile spam. With the support of these 1400 HP tanks any german infantry including mortars which has the same range as 17 pounder can't even get close to the 17 pounder, it means if you don't have a 105 LeFH/JT you can hardly counter the 17 pounder supported by churchill/AVRE/Crocodile.

And the most important thing is, the 17 pounder is a stock unit while the 105/JT is a doctrinal one.

AVREs and crocs cannot be spammed, they are limited to one per player. the someone spams chruchills get a pair of jpIVs and hard counter them.

I hardly ever see a JT/17 pounder match up. And regardless of what some of you claim, I highly doubt the average player goes "you know what, I won't build a 17 pounder because of the JT that is going to come out 15 min from now." Kappa

AVREs and crocs cannot be spammed, they are limited to one per player. the someone spams chruchills get a pair of jpIVs and hard counter them.

I mean there are spams of all types of Churchills on the field,such as comman Churchill + AVRE or common Churchill + Croc. Yes JpIV is another option but still needs ele/JT to hard counter these 1400 HP beasts.