Rifles as a unit itself beat grenadiers at all ranges for 40 mp.Curiously for same MP difference one can't say the same abt sturmpios and rifles.
Rifles can also equip 2 LMGs.
On top of this 5 men ,less chance fo wipe.
And on top of all this you STILL made an immense disparity in vet bonuses with grenadiers?Which with 4 men wipe oftena s it is.
After this terrible lategame disparity,why should i in my right mind even bother with pottygrenadiers,seeing as they would stand absolutely zero chance against rifles in scaling?Mgs can only save u on the defense,not offense and early/midgame ,not once they start dodging bullets.
Grenadiers are simply not needed as support units.Pzgrens and osttruppen can do it better.This muni and MP sink will just drag you down.Every game you use them u'll get grenadier squadwipes along the line.Everygame -one way or other.
Ostheer (Wehrmacht) Grenadiers
13 Nov 2015, 16:14 PM
#61
Posts: 1705
13 Nov 2015, 16:17 PM
#62
Posts: 26
Mgs can only save u on the defense,not offense and early/midgame ,not once they start dodging bullets.
not even MGs can save you, he'll just pop smoke, get up and rain nades on you
i find weakening the blob with snipers and then letting them chase you into 3 vetted grens with light-mg42s or tanks your best bet
13 Nov 2015, 16:18 PM
#63
Posts: 600
And bump their cost to 280?
Because cheap unit standing up to expensive one on similar weapon profile sounds imbalanced.
Plus, it would completely destroy any balance dynamic vs soviets, unless you want to give them stock weapon upgrades as well.
How about keep their cost at 240.... but when you build a new squad after the upgrade, they arrive 4/5. Thus making the player need to invest another 30 off the bat.
(makes them cost 270 without making them a resource heavy unit).
13 Nov 2015, 16:19 PM
#64
Posts: 1705
Every allied fanboy saying rifles should beat grenadiers at all ranges,never answer why sturmpios don't beat rifles at all ranges for same cost difference?
13 Nov 2015, 16:22 PM
#65
Posts: 26
Every allied fanboy saying rifles should beat grenadiers at all ranges,never answer why sturmpios don't beat rifles at all ranges for same cost difference?
to be fair vanilla rifles DO win against grens on all ranges, but unless they are equipped with two bars and/or have a vet advantage its not going to be very onesided, the rifle squad is usually losing a couple of models. sturmpioniere on the other hand completely wipe the floor with rifles squads on close range, thus they should win as easily or at all on longer ranges.
13 Nov 2015, 16:24 PM
#66
Posts: 281
Every allied fanboy saying rifles should beat grenadiers at all ranges,never answer why sturmpios don't beat rifles at all ranges for same cost difference?
Since sturmpios are assoult troops, so they are efficent on short/mid range.
13 Nov 2015, 16:26 PM
#67
Posts: 1705
Since sturmpios are assoult troops, so they are efficent on short/mid range.
Thats not the point...point is why does the same price difference justify 2 different performances?
Either sturmpios are overpriced or grenadiers underperforming or rifles overperforming.
13 Nov 2015, 16:27 PM
#68
Posts: 1705
to be fair vanilla rifles DO win against grens on all ranges, but unless they are equipped with two bars and/or have a vet advantage its not going to be very onesided, the rifle squad is usually losing a couple of models. sturmpioniere on the other hand completely wipe the floor with rifles squads on close range, thus they should win as easily or at all on longer ranges.
Their short range is a pathetic 5.Everyone knows long range> short range unless u have armor like shocks.
13 Nov 2015, 16:33 PM
#69
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Every allied fanboy saying rifles should beat grenadiers at all ranges,never answer why sturmpios don't beat rifles at all ranges for same cost difference?
For the same reason why shocks don't beat grens at all ranges.
By your very own logic here, they should.
Happy now?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Nov 2015, 16:35 PM
#70
Posts: 1705
For the same reason why shocks don't beat grens at all ranges.
Happy now?
Nope.Critical difference -shocks have armor and can run up and kill the grens easily.
Sturmpios don't,so if they run across without cover rifles will shred them.
13 Nov 2015, 16:37 PM
#71
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Nope.Critical difference -shocks have armor and can run up and kill the grens easily.
Sturmpios don't,so if they run across without cover rifles will shred them.
So for the same reason commandos lost to grens at long range.
Commandos don't have armor.
And if you still want to play idiot(ok, I know, you don't play, its natural),
for the same reason assault guards lose to grens at long range.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Nov 2015, 16:39 PM
#72
Posts: 1705
So for the same reason commandos lost to grens at long range.
Commandos don't have armor.
And if you still want to play idiot(ok, I know, you don't play, its natural),
for the same reason assault guards lose to grens at long range.
Commandoes can still run up to grens and mow them down due to poor dps,so the basic point stands.Strums can't do that to rifles .
As for assault guards i haven't faced this unit for a long time so can't say.
13 Nov 2015, 16:43 PM
#73
Posts: 1705
I don't really know how to solve this grenadier mess.
One option is nerfing us and ukf infantry.This would leave wehr-soviet balance untouched.
Second option is buff wehr infantry,but then conscripts will have trouble.
whatever happens lategame grenadiers and pzgrens need much better survivability.And the vet bonuses on ukf/allied dodging bullets is too much.Not even going into reinforce costs.
Big mistake of relic was to try to fix rifle MP bleed with vet bonuses,they should have made a upkeep/reinforce cost reduction upgrade avilable lategame than this.
One option is nerfing us and ukf infantry.This would leave wehr-soviet balance untouched.
Second option is buff wehr infantry,but then conscripts will have trouble.
whatever happens lategame grenadiers and pzgrens need much better survivability.And the vet bonuses on ukf/allied dodging bullets is too much.Not even going into reinforce costs.
Big mistake of relic was to try to fix rifle MP bleed with vet bonuses,they should have made a upkeep/reinforce cost reduction upgrade avilable lategame than this.
13 Nov 2015, 16:50 PM
#74
Posts: 281
Their short range is a pathetic 5.Everyone knows long range> short range unless u have armor like shocks.
that is simple not true, by your own logic grens are better than constrips.Wich there aren't.
13 Nov 2015, 16:56 PM
#75
Posts: 1705
that is simple not true, by your own logic grens are better than constrips.Wich there aren't.
I never said grens are better than conscripts,but the difference is much less marked and largely works compared to disparity with IS and rifles.
13 Nov 2015, 16:58 PM
#76
10 Posts: 871
I'm really not seeing how Grens are meant to be "useless", you can't just yolo attack move with a Gren blob against USF any more. Have to use combined arms to beat them (Grens, MG42, Snipers).
Too many people are trying to gren blob their way to victory and it just doesn't work vs USF anymore. Snipers bleed both USF and Brits super hard and its not that hard to keep them alive. USF has pretty poor counters for a sniper. M20 is OK but its easy to kill it or at least get a faust off so it cant kill your sniper. Brits don't have it easier either until they get their own sniper out, which you can still kill easily enough with your own sniper. U S E C O M B I N E D A R M S
Too many people are trying to gren blob their way to victory and it just doesn't work vs USF anymore. Snipers bleed both USF and Brits super hard and its not that hard to keep them alive. USF has pretty poor counters for a sniper. M20 is OK but its easy to kill it or at least get a faust off so it cant kill your sniper. Brits don't have it easier either until they get their own sniper out, which you can still kill easily enough with your own sniper. U S E C O M B I N E D A R M S
13 Nov 2015, 16:58 PM
#77
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
But you just did:
Grens are long range, cons are short range, cons don't have armor like shocks.
Everyone knows long range> short range unless u have armor like shocks.
Grens are long range, cons are short range, cons don't have armor like shocks.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Nov 2015, 17:01 PM
#78
Posts: 281
Grens should increase in scaling, in the mid/late game. They are fine in early game. The increase should also apply in survival capibility.
13 Nov 2015, 17:07 PM
#79
Posts: 380
I'm really not seeing how Grens are meant to be "useless", you can't just yolo attack move with a Gren blob against USF any more. Have to use combined arms to beat them (Grens, MG42, Snipers).+1
Too many people are trying to gren blob their way to victory and it just doesn't work vs USF anymore. Snipers bleed both USF and Brits super hard and its not that hard to keep them alive. USF has pretty poor counters for a sniper. M20 is OK but its easy to kill it or at least get a faust off so it cant kill your sniper. Brits don't have it easier either until they get their own sniper out, which you can still kill easily enough with your own sniper. U S E C O M B I N E D A R M S
13 Nov 2015, 17:09 PM
#80
Posts: 380
Also, two bars are 120 ammo, so it's not cheap. Bar upgrade cost fuel and mp. Grens got mg42 after tech up and cost 60 ammo. Gren squad with mg42 beat rifle squad with one bar on long and mid ranges. So, I think grens don't need 5 men.
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